Ronin

Then we must just agree on the degree.

Old Man

So you're telling me that whoever, or whatever, originated the big bang, must have done so outside of the dimensions of the universe. Ummm. So why is belief in God so illogical (or moronic)?

Javaman

Old Man,
The argument that, since the cause of the universe (if there is one) is not fully known/accepted, Christianity (or whatever monotheistic belief system you adhere to) is right will hold no water here. Akin to, "you don't know what the first life form was therefore the IPU did it."

Mav

Old Man: (Quote) So you're telling me that whoever, or whatever, originated the big bang, must
have done so outside of the dimensions of the universe. Ummm. So why is belief in God
so illogical (or moronic)?

Here is one idea Old Man,....Fear. Man will make up reasons to calm himself, that he
can hold on to, to put his mind at ease. Just look how hard we work on finding answers to
questions we have yet to answer. We spend millions on finding answers. Space, Deep
Sea, Cancer, Our Past....and so on.
When something GOOD happens, who get the credit for it? "It was the hand of God!!"
(this is true unless it was a BAD happening, then it becomes "The will of God! or "It is
part of God's plan") Either way we can not explain the happening and that causes
fear. Thus what can not be explaned gets tossed in to the Good Will of God Bin, and we all can sleep at night. =)

I have to agree with Old Man in saying: Ronin rules the school!

Old Man

I wasn't seeking to prove God by asking questions about the big bang. After all, that is only a scientific theory, and faith has never rested on the machinations of scientists. But atheists have yet to demonstrate how the big bang is incompatible with the existence of a power outside of the dimensions of the universe - or indeed incompatible with anything concerning existence.

PS: If you want to know who the real "religious morons" are, consider the 400,000 British nerds who claimed their religion was "Jedi" in the latest census.

Old Man

Actually, the positing of a God is, logically speaking, profoundly disturbing. Because it infers that death might not be the end of life. And if death is not the end of life, then what might happen to bad people?

The words of Christ are terrifying. "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

The words of Isaiah "The worm will not die, the fire will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind".

No, I believe it is the reverse of what you say. Athesits don't want to consider the existence of a God, because it has profound implications.

You were mistaken. I was only quoting someone else's remark.

viscousmemories

In fact it's more than just logically disturbing. It's rationally and reasonably disturbing too. Fortunately, my rationality, reason and understanding of logic lean far toward the conclusion that your god does not exist, which is much less disturbing to me.
Um... "bad people"? I'm sorry Old Man, but "bad people"? Surely there is a more specific criteria for determining who should spend the rest of their life in eternal damnation?
You know, I too am terrified by many of the things jesus is purported to have said. On the other hand, some pretty cool things have been accredited to him as well. This particular citation of yours, though, doesn't really scare me much. I mean, who says "weeping and gnashing of teeth" anymore? I can't even get a visual on that expression. Now, if it said, "burning blood will pour from your every orifice as you have a horrific acid trip while being force-fed feces as Johnny Cash drones on from the huge speakers in every corner of the room", then I might be scared.
I don't even get this one. An immortal worm, unquenchable fire and loathsome folks? Sounds like someone was up late reading "Dune" by the campfire at a christian retreat.
Um, 'scuse me... Are you suggesting that we heathens are so hesitant to consider the existence of a god, we have all come together to participate in a public forum largely focused on that very subject? How very odd of us.

Old Man, you are espousing some pretty generic, simplistic and quite easily refutable "proofs" for your beliefs. I recommend that you spend more time lurking around here reading the opinions of others before you go on. I think you'll find that reliance on faith is really the only rational defense you have, so you might as well forget the attempts at arguing from a scientific point of view.

Welcome to IIDB.

Javaman

I second this. Old Man, I spend the vast majority of my time hear lurking. I think it would do you good even if your reason(s) for being here don't change. Also, this quote of yours bothers me:

And perhaps it's because I don't fully understand your point. If I read you right, your logic still boils down to you can't/don't understand somethings - there may be some really powerful (invisible?) thing - I think it's God ...In that, your position is pretty solid but you won't find many converts by applying it here.

Rousseau_CHN

Religious Morons? It's not a question of knowledge, it's a question of courage.

Old Man

I am not so stupid as to look for "converts" here.

I come here to argue logic, but I am beginning to be disappointed.

What I find profoundly interesting, is that whilst maligning religion is easy, widespread, and straightforward, constructing a replacement theory seems very difficult.

Focusing on the big bang is quite interesting. I did astronomy as a subsidiary course at university (a little while ago now), so I am not so ignorant. But the implications of the big bang are clearly that the universe had its ultimate origin in something outside of itself.

So why should the positing of something outside of the universe be moronic? I'd like a constructive argument, please, and not the same old hash as in previous posts.