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premjan · 08-16-2007, 06:03 AM

Krishna is not an ideal man - he is simply an ideal. An ideal is something we choose to make an ideal. Muslims choose to make Muhammad an ideal. It doesn't mean that any particular human example is right for all circumstances. Rather they are defined to be right for all circumstances.

wordy · 08-16-2007, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

Dharma could just mean morality and ethics - are you against ethics? It is not that there is no self, it is that the self is a fluid and adaptive entity.

words like dharma or Gaia has specific cultural baggage.

I've been atheist now for over 50 years. Everybody here knows what God refers to. Ok nobody knows at all cause everybody have their own interpretation of it but it is an accepted word. dharma is to us here East and not West.

So it is a word that is functional in East and among westerners that have knowledge about East. I've read about Zen and Buddhism since about 40 years but me not being a supporter I have forgot what the word refers to and don't want to learn it either. That is also true about all atheists I met here in Sweden, they would stop reading if Fiquer used that word. It is too alien.

English text use english words. No need to include dharma in an english text unless you write about Eastern culture.

Does Fiquer propose an Eastern culture interpretation here. Not as far as I know.

The purpose is to take over the word God and to make that in a credible way would fail if he used dharma word. Even referring to Jung will destroy any chance but he doesn't agree on that view. That is why I say he is a overly optimistic.

Premjan you and Aupmanav could start an Eastern version maybe.

premjan · 08-16-2007, 06:11 AM

Well, aupmanyav is an Indian and identifies as a Hindu atheist, so it is natural that he uses an Eastern word. Why not? IIDB is location-independent, and anyway dharma is recognizable in English even if it does have some baggage.

figuer · 08-16-2007, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sapho

You could bring the pantheistic concept down to earth by incorporating Lovelock's Gaia idea. This would give people a very real object to worship, might be good for the planet too

The Gaia idea could be usefull at some levels.

wordy · 08-16-2007, 06:42 AM

You could be right about dharma being "recognizable in English even if it does have some baggage."

I'm too remote to English American, Canadian, Australian, New Zeeland culture to know what is recognised.

I know from around 1965 that dharma is Eastern here in Sweden. There is no way to use dharma without everybody in room instantly thinking Eastern!

No way. And then all will start talking about Eastern philosophy and practice and the whole purpose is destroyed.

But it is Figuers thread so I should not make such judgements but look how every derail from talking about God and instead to talk about Gaia or Krishna or Dharma. These words fail to be compatible with Western views on God.

If Figuer want to take over the word and usage that word means in Western cultures than all reference to dharma would create strife and none will talk about how to take over God and what that word refers to.

What is soo utterly important with that word so it is worth risking the OP purpose?

figuer · 08-16-2007, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khalimirov

Then what is the difference between your concept of God and the concept of the universe? Are they the same? If so, I think I prefer the word universe.

Yes, they are the same. Those who prefer 'universe' should use 'universe'. The purpose is not to make atheist into theist, but theist into atheist (without their knowledge).

aupmanyav · 08-16-2007, 06:47 AM

'aupmanyav, the first mention of dharma and 99 percent of us would stop reading.' Why, Wordy? Especially when I explain clearly what I mean by it (normal civilised behaviour)? Don't be so touchy, you don't become a Hindu just by pronouncing 'dharma'.

'Self': Of course, it is there but that is an appearance. It is a proton/neutron center with electrons whirling around, or quantas, or a elevation and depression in the quantum mesh, when seen without any perspective. I do not know exactly what, perhaps someone who knows his physics will tell me, but I have the general idea.

I do not know much, I do not know Gaia. I do not know Tao, Dao, I know buddhism only marginally. Perhaps that is an advantage.

Sharahan, Brahman is same for a human, a dog, a tree, or a stone. Krishna is a hero of a mythology, he may not be perfect. He picked up the wheel of a chariot after promising Bheeshma not to take up arms. He asked Yudhisthir to announce that Ashwatthama is dead when he was not. He made Jayadrath to commit suicide by asking the sun to set before time. I hope I have my stories right. Krishna is a peg on which Hindus hang so many things, including SrimadBhagawadGeeta.

premjan · 08-16-2007, 06:49 AM

I think Europeans are a bit derisive of anything that smacks of mysticism. They also don't appreciate holistic thought as they prefer everything to be reduced to causes and effects - probably a genetic thing.

wordy · 08-16-2007, 06:49 AM

Quote:

The Sanskrit term Dharma (help·info) (Pali: Dhamma) signifies the underlying order in nature and life (human or other) considered to be in accord with that order. The word Dharma is derived from the root 'Dhr' - to hold - and its etymological meaning is that which holds this world, or the people of the world, or the whole creation from the microcosm to the macrocosm. Ethically, it means 'right way of living' or 'proper conduct,' especially in a religious sense. With respect to spirituality, dharma might be considered the Way of the Higher Truths. Dharma is a central concept in religions and philosophies originating in India. These religions and philosophies are called Dharmic religions. The principal ones are Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism, all of which emphasize Dharma (the correct understanding of Nature) in their teachings. [1][2][3] In these traditions, beings that live in accordance with Dharma proceed more quickly toward Dharma Yukam, Moksha or Nirvana (personal liberation). Dharma also refers to the teachings and doctrines of the founders of these traditions, such as those of Gautama Buddha and Mahavira. In traditional Hindu society with its caste structure, Dharma constituted the religious and moral doctrine of the rights and duties of each individual. (see dharmasastra). Dharma in its universal meaning shares much in common with the way of Tao or Taoism.

from wiki

It is by definition Eastern but maybe Fiquer want his take over to be from East.

Premjan your teasing. Sam Harris love mysticism.

Quote:

I think Europeans are a bit derisive of anything that smacks of mysticism. They also don't appreciate holistic thought as they prefer everything to be reduced to causes and effects - probably a genetic thing.

My english is so lacking that the word derisive was new to me. I have to look it up back soon

Quote:

derisive - abusing vocally; expressing contempt or ridicule; "derisive laughter"; "a jeering crowd"; "her mocking smile"; "taunting shouts of `coward' and `sissy'"
gibelike, jeering, mocking, taunting
disrespectful - exhibiting lack of respect; rude and discourteous; "remarks disrespectful of the law"; "disrespectful in the presence of his parents"; "disrespectful toward his teacher"

Oh, I'm a bit like that then. Too bad. Not my intention. I just felt so sad that the word dharma should destroy any chance fo the project Figuer is proposing. Why are you so attached to it when you know how alien it is to us. A take over from East?

figuer · 08-16-2007, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aupmanyav

There is no self. It is only the working of a chance arrangement of atoms. The substrate, energy/substance/quantum mesh that constitutes this chance arrangement and every other thing (living or non-living) in the universe is 'Brahman' (as we hindus call it). Brahman is not a God, because it is governed by its own physical laws. It is simply the energy/matter of the universe. It is not anthropomorphic. Kind, loving, bountiful, just, all powerfull and other human attributes cannot be applied to it.

I disagree with several things. Self is a concept that identifies a particular physical arrangement, thus there is a self in as much that that particular physical arrangement exists and can be identified as conciousness. Your definition of Brahman is my definition of God: the energy/matter of the universe (physical reality). It is not anthropomorphic. This other conception of a "personal god" exist only within the individual imagination, and is identified with self-conciousness.

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08-16-2007, 06:03 AM	#101
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Krishna is not an ideal man - he is simply an ideal. An ideal is something we choose to make an ideal. Muslims choose to make Muhammad an ideal. It doesn't mean that any particular human example is right for all circumstances. Rather they are defined to be right for all circumstances.

08-16-2007, 06:11 AM	#103
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Well, aupmanyav is an Indian and identifies as a Hindu atheist, so it is natural that he uses an Eastern word. Why not? IIDB is location-independent, and anyway dharma is recognizable in English even if it does have some baggage.

08-16-2007, 06:42 AM	#105
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	You could be right about dharma being "recognizable in English even if it does have some baggage." I'm too remote to English American, Canadian, Australian, New Zeeland culture to know what is recognised. I know from around 1965 that dharma is Eastern here in Sweden. There is no way to use dharma without everybody in room instantly thinking Eastern! No way. And then all will start talking about Eastern philosophy and practice and the whole purpose is destroyed. But it is Figuers thread so I should not make such judgements but look how every derail from talking about God and instead to talk about Gaia or Krishna or Dharma. These words fail to be compatible with Western views on God. If Figuer want to take over the word and usage that word means in Western cultures than all reference to dharma would create strife and none will talk about how to take over God and what that word refers to. What is soo utterly important with that word so it is worth risking the OP purpose?

08-16-2007, 06:47 AM	#107
aupmanyav Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Delhi, India Posts: 18,926	'aupmanyav, the first mention of dharma and 99 percent of us would stop reading.' Why, Wordy? Especially when I explain clearly what I mean by it (normal civilised behaviour)? Don't be so touchy, you don't become a Hindu just by pronouncing 'dharma'. 'Self': Of course, it is there but that is an appearance. It is a proton/neutron center with electrons whirling around, or quantas, or a elevation and depression in the quantum mesh, when seen without any perspective. I do not know exactly what, perhaps someone who knows his physics will tell me, but I have the general idea. I do not know much, I do not know Gaia. I do not know Tao, Dao, I know buddhism only marginally. Perhaps that is an advantage. Sharahan, Brahman is same for a human, a dog, a tree, or a stone. Krishna is a hero of a mythology, he may not be perfect. He picked up the wheel of a chariot after promising Bheeshma not to take up arms. He asked Yudhisthir to announce that Ashwatthama is dead when he was not. He made Jayadrath to commit suicide by asking the sun to set before time. I hope I have my stories right. Krishna is a peg on which Hindus hang so many things, including SrimadBhagawadGeeta.

08-16-2007, 06:49 AM	#108
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	I think Europeans are a bit derisive of anything that smacks of mysticism. They also don't appreciate holistic thought as they prefer everything to be reduced to causes and effects - probably a genetic thing.

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