Ought Naught

When did you stop beating your wife, David?

David Mathews

Hello Ought Naught,

Historically, atheistic nations -- namely the Soviet Union and China -- have a bloody history of repressing the freedom of their own citizens and are also guilty of religious repression and persecution.

I don't see any mechanism by which atheism could prevent, condemn or discourage such behavior. Are you aware of any?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Synaesthesia

Atheism is neither bad nor good. Moral states cannot be ascribed to the distionction "lack of belief in any god".

Lack of belief in God can neither prosecute nor bring freedom. Lack of belief cannot insult anyone, lack of belief is incapable of organizing anyone.

In fact, lack of belief seems to me to be little more than lack of belief. Confusing a dogmatic political system (ie. Communism) with lack of belief seems to be a rather strange mistake.

Ought Naught

I'm sorry, David, but I am preoccupied right now with the thought that apples are not oranges. Can you imagine? Apples are fruit, and oranges are fruit; but apples are not oranges. Need I tell you the potential ethical consequences of my discovery? I had better do something about this before it's too late.

David Mathews

Hello Synaesthesia,

David: You are correct in saying that atheism is neither bad nor good. My concern is not with atheism as a philosophical proposition but with atheists as individuals, groups and leaders over nations.

How do these people learn anything of love via their philosophical opinions?

How do these people abhor hate, prejudice and bigotry via their philosophical opinions?

If atheism does not and cannot provide either of the above, atheists can commit acts of violence, genocide and atrocities.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Clutch

Sincerely David Mathews,

Not only am I an atheist, I am an aunicornist. I believe neither in gods nor in unicorns. Set aside for a moment my atheism, and consider for a moment my aunicornism.

It does not entail anything about love.

It does not entail anything about justice.

It does not entail anything about beauty, happiness, music, art, cheese sandwiches, raccoons, toasted-newts-on-a-stick, or Rocky and Bullwinkle.

And do you know what, Sincerely David Mathews? Your aunicornism doesn't entail anything about these things either. Your aunicornism, like mine, has but one overriding point and virtue... it is correct. There are no unicorns.

Mutatis mutandis, my atheism.

I hope this resolves (this one small corner of) your confusion.

David Mathews

Hello Clutch,

As a person and as an atheist, do you consider yourself forbidden from harboring hate, prejudice and bigotry towards others?

Best Regards,

David Mathews

YHWH666

Atheism is the view that no gods exist. It is not a worldview. The only thing common among atheists is the lack of belief in gods. There are atheists with all different sorts of philosophies and political views. There are atheists who are subjectivists, objectivists’ nihilists, egoists, Democrats, Republicans, Green party, independents, Socialists, Capitalists, and Anarchists. There are atheists who are pro-choice and there are atheists who are pro-life. There are atheists who are solipsists and there are atheists who are materialists. If someone where so say, “I am an atheist” the only thing you have learned about them is that they do not believe in gods, nothing else.

However there are a few common threads among atheists. For example most (for a variety of reasons) tend to find violence and hatred to be morally wrong.


Historically, theisms -- namely Christianity and Islam-- have a bloody history of slavery bigotry, murder, rape, torture, religious oppression, Spanish inquisitions, crusades, terrorist acts, world trade center bombings, burning “witches”, exorcising “evil spirits” (by burning them out of course!) from people who are epileptic and have seizures, and disrupting scientific studies because they where “heretical” (i.e. not consistent with their ridicules superstitions).

Most likely Hitler, and Stalin did not believe in leprechauns. This makes them
A-leprechaunists. Does this mean that anyone who is an A-leprechaunist is also a fascist?

Absolutely! The majority of history’s atrocities have had religious justifications. If more people where atheists then these atrocities would not have had the approval of the masses.


Let me ask you a question. If somehow someone magicaly proved to you that there is no god, would you start murdering and robbing people?

would you figure "hey since i am not going to be punished in the afterlife i guess there is no need being moral!"

optimist

They are correct to say that atheism is a stance on ONE issue, not a belief system. Just as theism is. Theism does not require love anymore than atheism. There could be a theism where God demands hate and killing, etc.

You are making a false comparison between Christianity and atheism. Christianity is a belief system and atheism is a stance on one issue. There are as many belief systems that involve love/hate which can be used with an atheism as there can be with a theism.

However, I doubt many atheists have a unified conception of morality (just like theists don't). Secular Humanism is a belief system that is atheistic, so it does make sense to ask what secular humanism's beliefs on love are, but not atheism.

Eudaimonist

Atheism is not a worldview. However, atheists may have worldviews for which atheism is merely one aspect, premise, or implication. Do you understand this?

No atheist is merely an atheist as far as worldviews are concerned. Atheism has nothing in and of itself to say about ethics, nor should it, but my worldview does.

Philosophicaly and ethically, I could be considered an Objectivist, and more broadly a eudaimonist. I don't have time to explain these terms in great detail, but I will briefly describe eudaimonism as the view that the ultimate goal of moral action is one's flourishing in this life, and the means to this end include rationality and moral virtue. A eudaimonistic life involves self-actualization, and its psychological reward can be understood in rough terms as happiness. Irrationality is destructive of eudaimonism's conception of the good life.

On the basis of my ethics, I can make judgments about proper and improper character traits.

My point is not to debate ethics with you. It is simply to show you that I am far more than merely an atheist. So is every atheist.

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]</p>