Peter Kirby

Sojourner writes: The walking on water story, however was probably originally plagerized from an earlier story told of Buddha

Where can I read this story told of Buddha?

best,
Peter Kirby

wordsmyth

I believe Greek for "Word" is <strong>lovgoß</strong> or <strong>logos</strong>, and not Elohim.

It is true that the "Word" refers to J.C., however there is an important distinction involved when he is referred to as the "Word" (logos) instead of "Christ" (Christos) or even just plain Jesus (Iesous).

I am not a Biblical scholar by any means, though I do have a working theory as to why the "Word" (logos) in reference to Jesus might actually point away from him being a part of a Trinity. I don't want to hijack the thread though, so I will just leave it at that.

NOGO

I think that this thread was already hijacked.
Please proceed I am curious.

NOGO

The other day I watched the movie Excalibur.
That this myth belongs in the middle ages is no more surprizing than to find fishermen creating myths about people walking on water.

Although it may have been, it really does not need to have been borrowed. It sits rather well where it is.

joedad

Bede,

You seem to be implying that there is some essential difference or differences between Pagan and nonPagan religions. Am I reading you correctly?

Personally, I see all religions as "religion," and so am curious as to your position here. If I am reading you correctly, what exactly constitutes those essential differences between Pagan and nonPagan religions?

joe

NOGO

Pagan is a derogatory term.
When you think of all that we owe the so called pagan civilizations one can only blush.

Dr S

(Sojourner) The walking on water story, however was probably originally plagerized from an earlier story told of Buddha

(PK)Where can I read this story told of Buddha?
(S) Oriental Mythology: The Masks of God by Joseph Campbell. Page 254 in the current edition. That should be the easiest to find.

Sojourner, I think if the walking on water were more closely associated with JC vs Satan in the wilderness as is the walking on water associated with Buddha vs Mara beneath the Bodi-tree it would seem more of a straight plagiarism. However the NT makes it look more like the walking on water that Orpheus and Dionysos did. I would lean towards Dionysos because he also changed evil spirits into swine (JC just stuck devils in 50 pigs) a la Circé, and he changed water into wine (he was Bacchus after all).
Of couse all of these "miracles" in these different myths date back to far older sources. With Buddha, Dionysos and Orpheus the only question is who did it just before Jesus?
Jesus healing miracles seem to be lifted straight from Apollonius of Tyana. But Jesus general life story is a retelling of Mithra. Magi showing up at his birth and the Jesus, a Jew, getting baptized by the god "John" instead of having a mikveh are dead give aways.

davidH

Well, Nogo - I am glad that you are at least not contradicting my interpretation (if it can even be called that) of John 1.

The answer to your question already lies in my previous answer.

I have shown that John is saying that the Word is Jesus - and that the Word is God.

Therefore Jesus = God.
Therefore the Word = God.

Maybe you didn't read my whole answer because I mention in it that I never have claimed this.

Now about your Elohim question.

Whenever you were referring to Elohim = the Word

I assumed that you were just saying that God = the Word, that is why I said you were correct.

But you bring up the good point.

Elohim is the word for God in the OT as it is written in Hebrew. The translation of this word as you said indicates a plural.
However the gospels where all written in Greek, as that was the language used by all at that time.
So if you look at the word "God" that is used in the NT do you see a plural?
That distinction must be made, so when John is saying that "the word was God and that the word was with God." the word Elohim doesn't apply, since it is Hebrew and all the gospels where written in Greek.

- Check that out if you can, maybe the Greek word is a plural one, I am not sure.

Yes, John is saying that Jesus was God and therefore he was the God who created the Heavens and the Earth.
John isn't saying that Jesus = Gods, but that Jesus = God.

There is no contradiction. Everything ties in perfectly.
Therefore the concept of the Trinity is completely supported and taught in the scripture.

I will wait for your next point unless you are still unsatisfied with my answer.

Rimstalker,

Right, this is a good point. A full answer to this would have to cover a lot.

We couldn't assume that these entities refer to those in the NT unless there was something connecting the 2.

1. Prophecy - the prophets in the OT predicted that the Messiah would come to Israel.
The date in Daniel of the Messiah's coming can be worked out - he was expected at the time of Jesus.
(Seen from the dead sea scrolls - won't go into greater depth.)

You could check on a Jewish website on all the Messianic prophecies - you should get a list.

-The Jews didn't understand that 2 comings of the Messiah were predicted. Hence the reason why Jesus was never accepted. (can elaborate on this.)

2. The OT and NT were both from the land of Israel and concerned the people of Israel.

3. Miracles performed in the OT were also performed in the NT.

4. Judiasm laws and commands can be seen to "shadow" Jesus.


I can go into detail on all of these here if you want.
That is once Nogo has seen that Jesus was seen to be divine, and also that the Spirit is distinct from the LORD.

However I will answer the other points that you have to make Nogo. There is no hurry, I will discuss everything that you want to.
It is just that Rimstalker is asking about something that is further on in the debate.


True, nowhere does Jesus say that in God there are 3 and yet all are one.
Though I wonder if Jesus had said this, how would he have explained this to his disciples?

We cannot comprehend it. For there is nothing that we can compare it to (fully that is). We can only scratch at the surface of this mystery.

Yet we don't have to go looking for clues to find this. It is obvious that Jesus was God from the NT. - He clearly states this as I have shown.

We find at the Baptism of Jesus, Jesus, the Spirit and the Father.
3 are separate but all are one - this is the mystery of the Trinity.
Like H20 - liquid, steam and gas - all different but all H20. - An example that has limitations but gets the idea across.

It is all there, it is just never spelt out.

Why? - Well, maybe it isn't such an important issue after all?

There is little or no infighting that I have ever come across.
To infight about it, one would have to deny that Jesus was divine - therefore Jesus lied and the gospel writers were deceived. Our Faith is in vain, for only God is sinless.

The agruements leveled against it as a pagan ripoff, well would it really have made any difference if it had been said flat out?

Wordsymth

Wordsymth - to do this you would have to deny that John 1 - the word was with God and the word was God - and it following on to show that Jesus was the word.
Read the other post i put up, before you give your theory. I have shown plainly that you can come to no other conclusion from John 1 - except that Jesus is God and therefore the "Word" = God.

I think that's enough for now - I don't want my post to be too long.

Sojourner553

See: Randel Helms, GOSPEL FICTIONS, Prometheus Books, p 65. (who in turn is referencing Rudolf Bultmann, THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (Philiadelphia: Westminister, 1971) p 230.)

Summary is here:

(5) Miracle of Commanding the Wind and Sea; Walking on Water

From the Psalms in the Old Testament, we are told how God (Jehovah)
had power over the wind and sea:

"At his command the storm-wind rose and lifted the waves high.
Carried up to heaven, plunged down to the depths, tossed to and from in
peril, they reeled and staggered like drunken men, and their seamanship
was all in vain. So they cried to the LORD in their trouble, and he
brought them out of their distress. The storm sank to a murmur and the
waves of the sea were stilled. They were glad then that all was calm,
as he guided them to the harbor they desired."(Psalm 107:25-30)

Likewise, when Jesus and his disciples were aboard a boat on the Sea of
Galilee:

"A heavy squall came up and the waves broke over the boat until it
was all but swamped. Now he [Jesus] was in the stern asleep on a
cushion; they roused him and said, "Master, we are perishing! Do you not
care?" He awoke, rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, "Hush! Be still!"
The wind dropped and there was a dead calm." (Mark 4:37-39)

Jesus showed power over the sea by walking on it! (See Matthew
14; Mark 6; John 6). The book of Job 9:8 states that God has this
power and "walks on the sea as on dry ground". The gospel of Matthew,
tells how the disciple Peter decided he wanted to try and walk on the
water too:

"Peter called to him: 'Lord, if it is you, tell me to come to you over
the water.' 'Come', said Jesus. Peter stepped down from the boat, and
walked over the water to Jesus. But when he saw the strength of the
gale he was seized with fear; and beginning to sink, he cried, 'Save me,
Lord'. Jesus at once reached out and caught hold of him, and said, 'Why
did you hesitate? How little faith you have!' They then climbed into
the boat; and the wind dropped. And the men in the boat fell at his feet,
exclaiming, 'Truly you are the Son of God.'" (Matthew 14:28-33)

This story (which appears only in Matthew) of Peter walking on the water
is similar to a Buddhist legend which was told by Buddhist missionaries
in Syria and Egypt as early as the second century B.C.E.:

A disciple decided to visit Buddha one evening, but,

"found that the ferry boat was missing from the bank of the river Aciravati.
In faithful trust in Buddha he stepped into the water and went as if on
dry land to the very middle of the stream. Then he came out of his contented
meditation on Buddha in which he had lost himself, and saw the waves and was
frightened, and his feet began to sink. But he forced himself to become
wrapt in his meditation again and by its power he reached the far bank
safely and reached his master." (quoted by Randel Helms on p 65, taken
from Rudolf Bultmann, THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (Philiadelphia: Westminister, 1971)
p 230.) (The Indian king Asoka, whose grandfather had met Alexander the
Great, boasted that he had sent Buddhist missionaries to the courts of
Antiochus of Syria, Ptolemy of Egypt, Antigonus of Macedonia, Magas of
Cyrene and Alexander of Epirus.)"


<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MIRACLE.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MIRACLE.TXT</a>

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Sojourner553

DavidH --

You sound like a nice person -- but is it not obvious you are "picking and choosing" among the verses???

You need to explain ALL THE VERSES! For if you can "pick and choose" (freely ignoring the "difficult passages") one could prove just about anything -- Jesus was a NRA supporter, fairies exist, etc.

Why not start with a basic fact: Why is it that the ancient hebrews had NO concept of a God as a Trinity in their Old Testament. [Of course, they "knew" of this concept -- but it was from pagan origins.]

The concept of heaven where the soul went AFTER death, by the way came from earlier Greek religions.

I'll bet you a $1 million dollars if you can show me where Jesus' birthday is stated as Dec 31 by the gospel writers in the New Testament. {This came from Mithra... etc, etc.)

Regards.

Sojourner