Radorth

That's OK. There's plenty more hypercrites where you came from.

Hope there's a Lutheran hospital nearby the next time you get in an accident racing somewhere a still small voice told you not to go.

Rad

Radorth

Clinton's a fundy baptist now?

Fiach's definition of a Christian:

"Anyone who says so."

Man, you should read the Bible. Jesus strongly disagreed.

Working my way up, looking for a meaningful post, containing a relevant provable fact, I am

Rad

Infidelettante

But then that doesn't answer my post does it Rad. Like I said...
You cain't! Score: JT- one, Rad- nil [still]

As for the hospital. This just goes to show how dense your skull is. Is Jesus the E.R. doctor? NO! and I'm still waiting for you to defend your God.
Score: JT-two, Rad-nil [still]

JT

Radorth

Oh man, it's Bill S and I forgot my vitamins this AM. I'll just have to muddle through.

Who asked ya, anyway.

You want us to believe a hospital with "Moses" in it has no ties to God? Heh heh. I bet he had a praying Christian grandmother!!

Any nuns work there for free, do you know?

OK you get a point.

Well maybe it is atheist, if it goes around "consuming" little guys. We aren't talking cannabalism or arson here I hope.

OK I will retract my statement. I didn't realize atheists were so magnanimous in Greensboro.

OK, but let us say God, for the sake of argument, is one who allows people who build in flood plains to drown, and folks dumb enough to build over known earthquake faults to get sucked into the earth by the thousands.

Would you not choose to live here anyway? I certainly would.

Let's go a step further and say this earth was the very best he could make (if he did) but he wasn't omniscient of every posible problem with it. He tells you it's the first earth he ever made, it has lots of problems, but it's the best he can do for now. He shows you his best photos and asks you if you want to live there.

Would you? I think yes we, all still would.

Now suppose he tells you that he's going to put you down there, and he will make sure you are well-fed and happy as long as you don't disobey him, and that if you do, he will curse the earth and not help you much at all because he would merely be facilitating rebellion. And if he decides a large group of people his enemies, and all their kids will be as well, he might kill the whole lot.

OK, at some point, we might decide he is just too harsh, and say no. The question is, where is that point? And the point is, half this thread cannot rationally be called anything but hypocritical, holier-than-God whining about how a "good" God wouldn't do this and would do that - blah blah. (Certain present company excepted).

Rad

Radorth

I've well answered it before in this thread. Go read the thread and tell me one question you raised which I did not answer. Otherwise, get lost.

The truth is, you didn't like the answers, but guess what? I don't care once I start seeing you ignoring my answers altogether.

Rad

Bill Snedden

Well, I did say "secular" and not "atheist", but what is it with you and "praying Christian grandmothers?"

Anyway, sorry but no.: the Cones were Jewish.

Actually, quite a fascinating family. Moses' sisters, Claribel and Etta, were friends of Gertrude Stein and early collectors of Matisse and Picasso. But, I digress...

Well, if the choice were between living and not living, I guess so, but would I worship the being responsible for my miserable lot? To be fair, I'm not sure I've got enough information yet...

I'm a little bit further along with this program now, but of course you're not describing the Christian god, here...

Well, I suppose first he'd have to give me some reason why I should obey him.

It's a fair question. Essentially, though, it's the old Euthyphro dilemma. What is "good?" How do we define it? Is whatever God wills good, or does God will things because they are good?

IMNSHO, the whole point of moral agency is the ability to evaluate; to make these determinations for ourselves. "Good" is not something external; it cannot be and have moral agency retain any significance or value. The point at which God's actions no longer comport to my idea of "good" is the point at which I can no longer submit to his will.

IMO, however, that doesn't doom the "god concept" from the get go. There is no reason of which I can think why a creator god cannot, as a moral agent himself, have the same relation to morality as we do. In other words, a part of the same intersubjective dialogue by which sentient beings seek to find meaning and purpose in their lives and, by extension, the standards and measures by which life should be lived.

I would have no problem whatever following a leader who could demonstrate to me that he or she was worthy of being followed. Heck, I do something quite similar once every four years!

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Infidelettante

No Radorth, there is no answer to my question anywhere in this thread. That question is: "Where is your Jesus and why is he not here?"That should not be a difficult one for you. Why did Jesus leave? I am a polytheist Radorth. I think your belief in your God is valid. I am more than willing to try and understand your devotion to him. I have not ignored your answer to my question. The answer is just not here. Why did Jesus, your God, your Savior, leave this world to suffering and pain and famine and war and earthquakes and floods?

JT

Cipher Girl

Hmmm interesting, Rad. Your only reply to my argument is that I spelled your name wrong.

According to some other christians I have conversed with in the past about the nature of god, he is supposed to be all-knowing, all-loving, and all powerful. But I have demonstrated that because evil occurs in the world he cannot logically exist with all three of these attributes at the same time.

If you try to say that the evil is caused by "Satan" then there goes the all-powerful attribute.

Radorth

Yes there is. I clearly said he will put an end to this misery along with free will. He has good reason to permit free agency for a time, and good reason to end it at some point. I have said ten times elsewhere there is no other way to get willing, committed servants and nobody has shown me a better way than to let us develop a long and sorry history. He returns when his elect "cry day and night" and when complete destruction is imminent and "no flesh will be saved."

You just didn't agree with me.

No problem. Enjoy your time in the grace period, without which YOU would either never have been born.

Oh BTW, if he had not allowed so much physical death and war, the sex-obsessed race on planet earth would have reached 20,000,000,000 starving people when? In the year 1000 if everyone lived to be say, 100? You wouldn't be here in that case either. And if he hadn't made potatoes, the Irish would have starved to death when exactly

Now if you want to argue he should have come back and put an end to sex, you might have a case. Oh wait I know. He should have made men so that they become impotent after having one child. How's that?

This has all been argued before, much better than you did, by Philosoft, and it was the same old disagreement about how to get willing servants. IMO he lost the argument as you did, but I can agree to disagree. I'm sure one of us is in for a huge shock. Oh wait. I guess not, if you're right. I'll be dead.

Hopefully this wasn't too deep for you.

Rad

Radorth

I'm the only person who has noticed what happens when there aren't any, apparently. You have me there.

They feared God then? I'm taking back that point.

Yes it is a dilemma, but recognized only by you and perhaps one other skeptic as far as I can tell. The whole point of the thread is to see at what point we would in fact fear God (in a healthy way), and forgive him for his "sins." Honest disagreements with him are fine. Job argued with him and complained, we are told, and was called "righteous."

I can't honestly say he wouldn't answer anybody or work something out with them even after they died, as long as s/he is "willing to be willing." (as Jesus said) I think he begs to reason with us, per a verse in Isaiah which says "Come let us reason together says the Lord..."

If you asked him why you should obey him, I think he would say that whatever he does or DOES NOT do ultimately works out for our benefit, whether we can see it or not.

I'm seeing double. Maybe after I get some sleep and vitamins...

Regards yourself,

Rad