dcwolf

Again, Red Dave, to resurrect our discussion from 2 weeks ago, how do you figure Dean has supported those Bush policies? Nay, he's been outspoken against them.
Interesting. Most of what I've heard from Dean supporters on Kucinich is that they are doubtful of his ability to beat Bush. Curious why you would take the statement of maybe one or two people and twist it into an ideology of the entire camp.

RED DAVE

Again and again, once more and again, I judge the party, its history and platform, not the man.

1. The Democrats are the junior partners of the Republicans: Republican wannabes. They have backed every move of Bush's.

2. While he has opposed Bush, Dean has remained a loyal Democrat, not distancing himself from the forces which have backed Bush. He is appealing to these forces to back him.

3. Dean is waffling. I can't find a source for "New Ager" and "red flag socialist" canards, but, if they're true, they show Dean showing his true colors (and they ain't red or green, for that matter).

4. Dean still has to capture his party's nomination. We'll see who changes whom.

5. Should Dean capture the Democratic Party nomination, conservatives can sit it out and let him commit suicide. There is precedent: McGovern.

6. What will you do if a conservative captures the Democratic Party nomination? You will have submerged your force into the party, and you will have no independence.

Incidentally, to get back to the original subject of this thread: Nader's waffling. This doesn't surprise me at all. He has never been a real independent. He has been forced into it by circumstances. My support is for the party (Greens), not the man (Nader). Should he, personally, pull out, the party remains.

RED DAVE

Calzaer

No, but it might ensure that elections continue to be held in the coming years, unlike voting for the Green Party.

I simply can't understand how people can be so blind as to NOT see the mortal world danger Bush represents. Patriot Act II is on the way, at which point the entire Green party will be rounded up and arrested as a terrorist-supporting group without any oversight or appeal to the judicial branch. There's your revolution, you commies. Enjoy holding your cell-block elections in secret prisons after 2004.

Rusting Car Bumper

The above statment is translated into American English as:

"I'm voting for George Bush in 2004."

DC

dcwolf

Okay, fair enough, Red Dave. But personally, I vote for the individual, not the party. Dean's character and lifestyle strike me as someone who's much more down-to-earth and realistic than Bush. He's an outdoorsman and, by politician's standards, a minimalist. And he's stood up for some cool things in his past, like fighting for a bike lane to be installed in his community in the 80s. And more than this, he listens to people, weighs the pros and cons and makes informed decisions. That's a vast improvement over our current pResident.

He dispises Bush so much (and has been assailing his Healthy Forest Act and Clear Skies Act), that I wouldn't be surprised to seem him reinstate Clinton's last minute environmental regulations just to spite Bush.

Being a doctor, I'm sure Dean's much more in favor of education and scientific research than is Bush. This country cannot stand four more years of creationism and hegemony of mind development.

RED DAVE

I want to keep this thread going, or substitute a similar one, as I believe the issue of how to oppose bush & co. in the upcoming election is going to be enormously important in the next year and a half.

I want to reiterate my position quickly:

1. The Democratic Party is, and has been, the junior partner to all of Bush's adventures, from the first tax cut to the invasion of Iraq.

2. Forces within the Democratic Party that oppose bush & co.'s policies are still part of this party and must take responsibility for its actions or leave the party. No such force or candidate has bolted the party. They are still inside, engaged in "gentlemanly" debate.

3. Any candidate for president of this party must ensure that the program of the party is sufficiently anti-Bush and that the party will support that candidate and the program. The party has, in the past, nominated liberal candidates and undermined them: Stevenson and McGovern.

4. No candidate of the Democratic Party is either sufficiently "progressive" or distinguished enough from Bush to make a difference because their politics are wishy-washy and they are members of the Democratic Party.

5. At this juncture in history (pretty fancy jargon), only a very radical candidate will be able to undo what bush & co. have done to the economy and the world. A moderate, depending on the same forces that bush depends on, will not be forcefu enough to reverse the tendenceies towards war, repression, ecological and economic disaster that bush & co. have begun.

6. Waffling on issues such as capital punishment and gay marriage, "support for our troops" and the practice of red baiting (which Dean has engaged in) are signs of capitulation to the right early in the game.

7. The road to an independent politics, a third party, is a long one. The current crisis, severe as it is, is no excuse for running in panic into the arms of the Democratic Party, which has been the death of every progressive movement that ever engaged in that embrace.

More later.

RED DAVE

Calzaer

You're wrong. A Democractic administration would not push for the passing of Patriot Act II, and will let the current Patriot Act die.

So, in other words, we're fucked. The situation is completely hopeless.

dcwolf

We'll be a 3rd world country by the time the revolution you're planning comes to fruition. Too many people in the US pay no attention to politics to generate any such action. With creationism pre-empting scientific education in the coming years, Bush will only tighten his grip on an increasingly stupified nation.

Improvement from 'anybody but bush' (particularly a physician) in scientific research and education is crucial. This issue just occurred to me recently when I heard about some fundies pushing creationism, complete with the 6,000 year-old universe... They must be shown the door immediately.

clark

Good news for Dean, not-so-good news for Kucinich:

Former Ohio Senator Howard Metzenbaum endorsed Howard Dean today over fellow Ohioan Dennis Kucinich. Story here.

THOUGHTfully Yours,
Clark

RED DAVE

Calzaer and dcwolf have made serious statements about a possible Democratic Party-Dean administration which deserve to be answered:

There is no evidence for this: just wishful thinking. Remember, the Democrats helped to pass this legislation. I see no force inside the party that is pushing to repeal the Patriot Act to the extent that they are willing to go to the wall to oppose it. Considering that it is a blow to our liberties equal to McCarthyism and Nixon's incursions, the Democrats have failed us completely.

The Democrats are not the great fighters for freedom we all wish they were. If there's a plank in their platform about teaching evolution, I'll eat it. It's up to us to fight the right. Don't wait for the Democrats.

I can't see Dean leading a great secular crusade for scientific research and education. Again, that's wishful thinking.

RED DAVE