E_muse

Too many plates to spin

Well exactly! Actually I do give a nod to the cranial capabilities of the atheists and I can fully appreciate the struggles they have in believing in God.

Indeed.

I think we're agreed here. However, I do think that the modern Church is a poor reflection of the Church that is put forward in the NT.

Yes.. need to think about that a bit more. Mercy cannot be understood or appreciated outside the concept of wrath.

It's refreshing to hear that.

I agree that we should reject a God is 'only subjective'. A God who exists only as a concept or some philisophical ideal is an inadequate God. He only has the power to exist in our thinking - if he does exist at all.

However, my experiences challenge me to see God as something more than a mere concept or thought.

We certainly perceive it as one of the strongest promises (not least the resurrection of Christ), simply because it relates to one our strongest fears.

I find it frustrating and it makes me angry. I become so angry when I hear things like, "Buy this video, buy that video, and overcome the power of Satan in YOUR life!" YUK!!

Getting fat on the spoils of the vulnerable I call it!

Why not, "We'll give you this video. You send us the money if it works for you!" That would put the non-genuine ones out of business!

I think that recent bad press concerning the Catholic Church emphasizes your point. I think that abuse is more likely to happen where people turn a blind eye.

Jesus had strong warnings for those who abuse children and I don't think that forgiveness is as simple as many people make it.. but that's a whole other subject!

I think that we're already living with the alternative and it stinks.

The strength of your belief does not make the object of your belief real.

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: E_muse ]</p>

DarkBronzePlant

Okay, we've gotta stop with these long posts!
Sorry, I misread your intentions. Wierd segue, I guess...

Interesting assertion. Could mercy be appreciated if god supposedly had mercy on everyone (and thus, wrath on no one?) Either way, I guess originally I was saying that Christians would think they had anything to fear from a god who is capable of wrath, because they are behaving correctly, no?

Yeah, not every atheist claims to dislike the notion of an eternal heaven. (I've personally always thought that sounds like sour grapes anyway...) Although with my quote above, I was presuming to speak for the majority of people; i.e. I think most people would find the idea of heaven favorable. But then, I think the idea of a real-life Santa Claus would be kind of cool too.
Interesting. Can you expand on how you are thusly challenged?
In that example, I share your frustration. I was thinking of entirely different examples.
read: they'd all go out of business.
Well, it's more than bad press, its deplorable behavior. But again, that's not what I am referring to.

It's things like these:

Proverbs 13:24 - Those who spare the rod hate their children, but those who love them are diligent to discipline them.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 - If there is a young woman, a virgin already engaged to be married, and a man meets her in the town and lies with her, you shall bring both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death.

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.

to pick just a few.
Even those who beat them with rods?
Much as I can't stand the religiousness the pervades the U.S., as you point out, it's sort of half-assed religion. Was it Stuart Copeland on Politically Incorrect who said that the difference between us and the Middle East is that we don't really take our religion seriously? Imagine if we did!
Thanking you for making my point much more succinctly than I did!

E_muse

lol!

The apostle Paul asserted that we are 'saved by grace', not by 'works' or doing the right thing.

Many Christians (and I mean many) do believe that they will go to Heaven because they are better than others - good boys and girls if you like - but I'm not sure that such a view is Biblical! But when did that ever stop anyone

Fair comment. It's just refreshing to communicate with someone who obviously isn't just wrapped up in winning arguements!

Well, I know of people who have recovered from life threatening illnesses after receiving prayer.. as one example.

I don't know many of these people directly, but they are know to those who are close friends of mine.

Such as?

Most probably.

Well said!

As a parent I am not actually against physical punishment.. and I certainly don't support the view that children should develop unchecked and find their own way.

I don't think this verse is saying that we should always hit our children and that this is the only form of discipline available.

These are tough verses.. and I struggle to understand them.

What is interesting is the depth of sanctity with which the male/female relationship was viewed.

Of course, this is an OT view (no mercy).

Of course he does not specify. But of course, what is considered 'abuse' differs from culture to culture.

I think that would open up a whole new can of worms!

I think if people put into practice what Jesus taught, then it would be such a problem.

I think that Stuart Copeland has a point.

Just checking that I'd understood!

DarkBronzePlant

&lt;takes big swig of caffeine...&gt;
Yes, my statement of "going to heaven because of behaving correctly" was worded entirely incorrectly. By "behaving correctly", I meant exhibiting the correct behavior, which is simply believing in god. "Behaving correctly" could easily be interpreted to mean "doing good unto others", which is not what I meant. Sorry 'bout that.
Ah, yes, usually it is a friends-of-friends who experience miracles...

But seriously, how does this, as you say, "challenge me to see God as something more than a mere concept or thought"? Are you saying that because prayer happened simultaneously with a person being healed, then that's proof of god's existence? I think we're finally sliding back into the original topic here...

The stuff I mention below... the bad parts of the bible that people seem willing to ignore, to sweep under the rug, probably because it's not very palatable. Don't like the fact that the bible advocates killing people for being gay, or for working on Sundays (or Saturdays, depending on how you interprete "Sabbath")? Hey, that's what your "Good Book" preaches!
There's definitely a chasm between letting a child develop unchecked and beating the child.
To me, it's quite clearly stating that children should be kept in line by beaitng them with sticks when the get out of line. We could say that "rod" is a metaphor, but then we start getting into the issue that this book, which is supposed to be a guidebook for how to live one's life, is filled with metaphors. What else in the bible is a metaphor? What should we take seriously and what should we not take seriously?

I'm not sure what the struggle is here. Do you honestly not understand them? Or does the struggle lie in trying to rectify the verses with the all-loving god who wrote the book?
I'll say!
The OT is still one-half of the bible. Or can people start discounting it now? (Note, I think lots of people have already, but should they, if they truly believe?)

You're right; we've digressed enough! Anyhow, I think we've gotten past the whole "weak-minded" conversation, so perhaps we ought to open up another thread somewhere...

E_muse

I have enjoyed discussing the topic. As always, such discussions present other junctions - other factors that require discussion - and ultimately the matter becomes more complex.

I'm sure our paths will cross on other threads..