Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Batman · 02-23-2003, 10:55 AM

Atheism is not a philosophy but is simply a disbelief in a god or gods or a goddess or goddesses. Each Atheist forges their own philosophy which can contain completely different values but none of these values can require the god belief.
Atheists use their own minds to reach their conclusions. Most use reason and rational thought to develop their own and/or adopt a philosophy.
To suggest that they cannot use reason or must "borrow" these concepts from outside their reality is silly. It is the Theist who uses irrational concepts to reach their own conclusions not the Atheist.
However, after reading through this thread I see that many others have pointed this out to Keith but he refuses to accept it. Indeed, he is reduced to simply denying it without any logical reasoning behind his denial.

Keith · 02-23-2003, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sue Sponte

"Because it is true. You make little sense. I don't mean that as a personal attack, but simply that what you say makes little sense to me.

Yes, I am, for me. As you are for you.

Having done so, please now explain why most people who don't share your theistic beliefs act morally, respecting and not harming others. Your view that morality only comes from following your god cannot logically account for this. It is a non sequitor.

It's been answered repeatedly. You simply choose not to accept the answer. The standard for reasonable is chosen by each individual. That is why people act and view things differently. There isn't a cosmic normality that guides all behavior.

And how that standard is developed is as individual as the standards that result. My "standards" are a combination of many things, from the teachings of my parents, teachers, friends and family, knowledge gained from numerous sources (study, observation, experience, etc.), my own feelings on what is right and wrong, and every other aspect of life that has formed the person I am. The answer is the same for you, just that the "teachings" that you have accepted lead you to believe that the answer is the same for all. It isn't.

It is fairly evident that self-analysis is not a focus of yours. And I believe you are deluding yourself when you state that you are trying to consider other viewpoints, because you aren't. You are defending a position. Your quote demonstrates as much, as you have concluded that there is no valid opinion in the absence of your god. Thus, you cannot possibly consider other viewpoints. As a result, you can't possibly give meaningful consideration to what I've just written."

You have just proven everything I've been saying about atheism. Here is my question once again:

You claim that little I've said makes any sense. How can this statement be objectively true if God doesn't exist?

Your answer was just an admission that each individual's opinions make sense to himself/herself. You have nothing other than your own personal opinion as to whether my statements make sense. Since you still haven't shown how you can OBJECTIVELY claim that little I've said makes sense, I won't continue to answer your questions. My question has still not been answered.

Just in case you think my question concerning our ability to know objective Truth is not very important, consider the obvious fact that if Osama thinks that the mass-murder of Americans is a supremely righteous act, then you, by destroying objective Truth, have no moral reason to say that we should fight against him and against terrorism. From your worldview Osama is only doing moral wrong from some people's viewpoint. The morality of his deeds isn't anything objectively wrong. This is where you and I can't agree. I say that Osama's deeds are morally wrong regardless of what any individual thinks.

Keith

Keith · 02-23-2003, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Batman

"Atheists use their own minds to reach their conclusions. Most use reason and rational thought to develop their own and/or adopt a philosophy.
To suggest that they cannot use reason or must "borrow" these concepts from outside their reality is silly. It is the Theist who uses irrational concepts to reach their own conclusions not the Atheist."

Leading to the result that you have just made an inconsistent judgement about theists. On what objective basis do you claim that "it is the theist who uses irrational concepts..."

On your worldview everybody is just as "right" as everyone else. Yet you then say that theists use irrational concepts.

Keith

Sue Sponte · 02-23-2003, 12:04 PM

Keith, you apparently believe that you are directly channeling the views and morality of your god. There is no you, Keith, just god. It's pretty sad, as you apparently have no sense of who you are as an individual, apart from what someone tells you about god. For example, you can't understand why I would find Al Qaida's acts of terrorism wrong, as if you would believe them correct but for your belief in christianity. That's a scary proposition, as you clearly have no individual sense of right or wrong.

This isn't a discussion. You don't discuss, you simply parrot back the same thing you've said over and over, without consideration of what others are telling you. It's been fun to point out how goofy much of what you say is, but seeing you dogmatically repeating your fallacies against all reason is tiresome and depressing. You are apparently the only one incapable of seeing this.

John Page · 02-23-2003, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
You claim that little I've said makes any sense. How can this statement be objectively true if God doesn't exist?

Keith:

Hi again. It doesn't make sense that god's existence is a requirement for a truth to be determined objectively. Ergo, what you said still doesn't make sense.

Cheers, John

Keith · 02-23-2003, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Page

"Hi again. It doesn't make sense that god's existence is a requirement for a truth to be determined objectively. Ergo, what you said still doesn't make sense."

Hi, John. If this is true, how can you know it is true? Are you just assuming it to be so?

Keith

Keith · 02-23-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sue Sponte

"Keith, you apparently believe that you are directly channeling the views and morality of your god. There is no you, Keith, just god. It's pretty sad, as you apparently have no sense of who you are as an individual, apart from what someone tells you about god. For example, you can't understand why I would find Al Qaida's acts of terrorism wrong, as if you would believe them correct but for your belief in christianity. That's a scary proposition, as you clearly have no individual sense of right or wrong."

I certainly can understand why you would find Al Qaida's acts of terrorism wrong. You were created in God's image, and God has instilled in all of us his moral precepts. You know God on some level because he has created the universe in such a way that it clearly displays order, design, and purpose. You understand moral concepts, like goodness, compassion, and justice because God made you to be a moral creature.

Because of your denial of God, you have no moral grounds on which to say that mass murder is objectively wrong. It can only be morally wrong to those who happen to see it that way. How is this any different than saying that some people happen to prefer chocolate ice cream more than strawberry? Why call it morality if ultimately every individual deed is nothing more than a subjective individual preference? Don't you see how your worldview makes nonsense out of reality?

Keith

Batman · 02-23-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
Leading to the result that you have just made an inconsistent judgement about theists. On what objective basis do you claim that "it is the theist who uses irrational concepts..."

On your worldview everybody is just as "right" as everyone else. Yet you then say that theists use irrational concepts.

Keith

This is just a lie. In my worldview everybody is NOT "just as right as everyone else". On what basis do you claim this? Constantly repeating something doesn't make it true! But it is irrational.

John Page · 02-23-2003, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
Hi, John. If this is true, how can you know it is true? Are you just assuming it to be so?

Below is what I posted - where do I say it is "true"?

You say "If this is true.....", well, its true for me and it makes sense to me and this is what I know. Knowledge is subjective w.r.t. the individual, not universal. If you don't know this and choose to disagree with me thats fine and rather agrees with what you're disagreeing with. I hope this is sufficient explanation from an atheist.

Cheers, John

Quote:

Originally posted by John Page
Hi again. It doesn't make sense that god's existence is a requirement for a truth to be determined objectively. Ergo, what you said still doesn't make sense."

Keith · 02-23-2003, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Batman

"This is just a lie. In my worldview everybody is NOT "just as right as everyone else". On what basis do you claim this? Constantly repeating something doesn't make it true! But it is irrational."

Well then, if some views are more correct than other views, who gets to determine which view is most correct?

Keith

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-23-2003, 10:55 AM	#291
Batman Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Nortwestern Connecticut Posts: 35	Atheism is not a philosophy but is simply a disbelief in a god or gods or a goddess or goddesses. Each Atheist forges their own philosophy which can contain completely different values but none of these values can require the god belief. Atheists use their own minds to reach their conclusions. Most use reason and rational thought to develop their own and/or adopt a philosophy. To suggest that they cannot use reason or must "borrow" these concepts from outside their reality is silly. It is the Theist who uses irrational concepts to reach their own conclusions not the Atheist. However, after reading through this thread I see that many others have pointed this out to Keith but he refuses to accept it. Indeed, he is reduced to simply denying it without any logical reasoning behind his denial.

02-23-2003, 12:04 PM	#294
Sue Sponte Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: west Posts: 1,213	Keith, you apparently believe that you are directly channeling the views and morality of your god. There is no you, Keith, just god. It's pretty sad, as you apparently have no sense of who you are as an individual, apart from what someone tells you about god. For example, you can't understand why I would find Al Qaida's acts of terrorism wrong, as if you would believe them correct but for your belief in christianity. That's a scary proposition, as you clearly have no individual sense of right or wrong. This isn't a discussion. You don't discuss, you simply parrot back the same thing you've said over and over, without consideration of what others are telling you. It's been fun to point out how goofy much of what you say is, but seeing you dogmatically repeating your fallacies against all reason is tiresome and depressing. You are apparently the only one incapable of seeing this.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.