Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Alter · 01-27-2005, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravon

Alter congrats on a great thread. You are able to do so well becasue you are smart and reasonable. I am sure that if all Israelis were as reasonable as you a doable peace would have been found. That is if you could have gotten the palestinians to over look some of the historical facts that you left out. Most notably is the notion that Israel was always where it was and that the surrounding territory was occupied by palestinaian. Isn't it true that when the first Jewish refugees started arriving after the war the initial response froom the palestinians living in Palestine was one of welcome and that they only became concerned when the numbers increased, Israeli terrorist like the Stern gang began operations and it became clear that the intention was to set up a jewsh state in the Palestinian homeland.

The Israeli government make a big deal of suicide bombers who they brand as terrorist. But when they launch a missle which falls from the sky and into a palestinian villiage they are... soldiers or terrorists.

Like the others on this thread I too hope for peace, but I am less optimistic than some because I know that Israel will not accept the possibility that they have done anything wrong. :banghead:

Thanks. Although the Israeli govt may not accept responsibility, the people do, and if Sharon doesn't move in some sort of positive direction, they'll kick him out.

I'm very cautiously optimistic. I think Sharon sees the writing on the wall, and so does Abbas. After some early saber-rattling, Abbas is arresting militants, and Sharon is (unbelievably!) stopping the targeted killing program. Both are big positive steps. I think both sides are sick of the fighting.

Sauron · 01-27-2005, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alter

As an aside:

Along those lines, I do not support openly racist, religion-mandating cultures like Wahhabiism.

So let's hear you denounce right-wing orthodox Judaism.

Use both sides of the paper if necessary.

Ravon · 01-27-2005, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel

It's the difference between carelessness and malice. It makes a big difference in the punishment one receives.

Where are you going with this train of thought? The Paestinian bomber carelessly got om the wrong bus blowing up .... As he released his battery of missles the pilot punched his fist in the air and said, "fuck you arab." Hey Loren you aren't trying to say that the Palastinians kill from malice but the Israeli loves his target are you?

Sauron · 01-27-2005, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alter

Compare that to the Israeli culture. Minorities within are allowed full rights (there are asome exceptions, but these are being eroded by the courts).

In point of fact, they are not allowed full rights. Even now, the right to buy land is restricted to Jews:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/532493.html

Quote:

Rightist MK: Fire AG for letting non-Jews buy JNF land

By Yuval Yoaz and Amiram Barkat, Haaretz Correspondents, and Haaretz Service

Justice Minister Tzipi Livny said on Thursday that the Israel Land Administration is not obligated to the principle of equality when selling lands.

The minister was interviewed by Channel 1 following calls for the dismissal of attorney general Menachem Mazuz after deciding that all land managed by the ILA and the Jewish National Fund must be marketed without discrimination or limits.

According to Livni, since the Israel Land Administration manages land purchased by Jews as part of the Zionist project, it is exempt from the principles of equality to which state-owned land is committed.

Quote:

The Palestinian culture is SICK, and needs help. Israel bears a large part of the responsibility for creating this sickness, but it is up to the Palestinians to heal themselves.

First you say that Israel bears responsibility.
Then you say it's up to the Palestinians to "heal themselves."
That -- like so many zionist statements -- is a contradiction.

Sauron · 01-27-2005, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel

Except that most of those Palestinian "children" are in their mid to late teens and are rock-throwers and the like.

Look here, specifically graphs 2.20 and 2.21. 2.20 i

Unfortunately, the citation is from an Israeli think tank with ties to the govt of Israel - which disqualifies it as an objective source of information. It's rather like quoting from the Heritage Foundation, in a discussion about American government. Anyone who understands the issues would discount testimony from the Heritage Foundation, given that they are an evangelical right-wing pressure group. Yet for some reason -- not a mystery, really -- Loren knows this, and yet continues to quote from this source.

Loren also refuses -- and we all know why -- to try and support his claim with objective, non-biased sources. It's rather hard to find such sources that are simultaneously (a) objective and (b) tow the zionist line.

Eh Loren?

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

comradeBillyboy · 01-27-2005, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alter

Thanks. Although the Israeli govt may not accept responsibility, the people do, and if Sharon doesn't move in some sort of positive direction, they'll kick him out.

I'm very cautiously optimistic. I think Sharon sees the writing on the wall, and so does Abbas. After some early saber-rattling, Abbas is arresting militants, and Sharon is (unbelievably!) stopping the targeted killing program. Both are big positive steps. I think both sides are sick of the fighting.

i surely hope you are right

Loren Pechtel · 01-27-2005, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravon

Ah Loren if only it were true- then we would never see palestinian children with arms and legs blown off being rushed to hospitals. You probably believe
american bombs and missles are not killing innocent iraqis either. They may call them smart bombs but really Loren they aren't that smart. :banghead:

And where is Israel supposed to get the magic missiles that can hit exactly one person only???

Sauron · 01-27-2005, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel

And where is Israel supposed to get the magic missiles that can hit exactly one person only???

Israel doesn't even try.

Which is why they destroy entire neighborhoods in order to (allegedly) get at a single terrorist.

So even if such magic missiles were available, Israel woudln't use them because the neanderthal urge for revenge wouldn't be satisfied.

Sauron · 01-27-2005, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

shall I say too, like you, so shamelessly, I can't wait until all Muslims and the stupid middle eastern religions along with them are eliminated from this earth?

People should use their heads and try to open their hearts just a bit before they attack each other

Funny how the first sentence and the second sentence contradict each other. Or maybe, not so funny after all.

What's your religion, Dharma?

Because I'm sure a lot of people would love to subscribe to a religion that can simultaneously
(a) espouse extermination while also
(b) preaching intellect and "opening their hearts."

:rolling:

rlogan · 01-27-2005, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alter

Okay, here's my challenge to you:

First, forget history for a moment. Don't waste breath arguing whose claim to what is how many years old, or anything like that.

Groovy.

But let's start in the bank vault with all the cash in bags at my feet.

I'll walk out with the cash, yes. It's mine now. Rightfully so, as the claims by the owners were nullified.

Quote:

If your anti-Israel sentiment has to do with your dislike of Jews, change the name. Picture a little country of Sauronites, or WinSmithies, or whatever.

How trite. First accuse with bigotry and then follow with patronizing analogy.

Quote:

(Your people are still persecuted in many places throughout the world, and there have been attempts in the past to annihilate you by large governments.) You occupy the territory adjacent to your country, filled with a people who have many who hate you and seek your destruction. Your capital includes some occupied territory.

Didn't you just tell us to forget history? Now we can see why, I guess. So you can just make your own "just so" version.

etc.

Sauron:

Quote:

So let's hear you denounce right-wing orthodox Judaism.

Use both sides of the paper if necessary.

The U.S. sends billions to the Israelis and enforces an embargo upon the palestinians, but a person who objects to the status quo is labelled "pro-palestinian".

I am in opposition to having taken sides in a war that is none of our business. That is a different thing from being "pro-palestinian".

The supporters of this tremendous military and economic assistance to Israel use all sorts of stupid argumentation about Israel's justification for action.

That is all so much piffle because what counts is that they have our direct subsidy of military muscle and money, plus vastly more geopolitical clout in terms of implied threat to anyone who stands in their way.

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