Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Mathews · 07-14-2002, 07:10 PM

Hello Ryanfire,

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Okay. Now what happens to your soul when it's with god? What happens to your soul when it is seperated from god?

David: I suppose that union with God is a pleasant experience for the soul, sort of like returning home after a long trip; separation from God is probably a terrible state for the soul, sort of like the intense loneliness people feel when they are permanently separated from their loved ones.

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In Death, we expect to find answers
In Life, we expect to find answers

Why must we always choose death David?

Lets assume man has defeated death in every way.
Would you fear eternal life?

I don't see the difference if we as "souls" exist eternally in human form, or spritual form. The point being we are still souls, regardless of the form it takes. So I hope religion and theism can stay out of the way if I choose to live eternally as a human. God would still exist in both scenerios David. I hope you realize this.

David: If you want to live eternally in human form, I certainly won't prevent you from doing so.

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I'm not sure why humans or myself exist. Now it's your turn. Why does god exist?

David: God's existence is intrinsic, hence He does not need any cause for existence.

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It must suck being a soul trapped in a human body eh David? I guess god should come save you from your existence. I don't know how you could be saved when you don't appreciate what you have been given. You must find love and trust within yourself David, I think you have lost them in all your attempts to find answers. Are you willing to go on a journey for truth David? Or does it matter to you anymore?

David: The human body is a gift that I can abandon. I always search for the truth, that is why I am here talking with you.

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And what attributes do spirtual senses have?

David: The spiritual senses have no attributes, they are strictly abstract intellectual concepts.

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And those are?... hahaha exactly that, IMAGINARY

David: The square root of a negative number is an imaginary number. Do I have to explain to you why such numbers are considered imaginary?

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Humans just lack understanding. They are beautiful beings nonetheless

David: I agree.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-14-2002, 07:13 PM

Hello excreationist,

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David Mathews:
...I suppose that the talking snake is an externalized allegory of the mind's inclination to desire evil and challenge rules...
Are you saying that that incident didn't literally happen? The stories in Genesis seem to flow on from one another - how do you know which stories really happened and which didn't? Also, do you think that the authors of the Bible intended the ages of people in the Bible to be taken literally? (see <a href="http://members.ozemail.com.au/~wenke/bible/genealogies.htm" target="_blank">Bible genealogies</a>)

David: I am prepared to interpret Genesis 1-11 allegorically. Allegories are not lies, they convey spiritual truths through symbols and images.

I do believe that the geneaologies are not literal. There are alternative explanations possible for these ages.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-14-2002, 07:28 PM

Hello wordsmyth,

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Would you still be a xian if the life of Jesus as portrayed in the bible made no mention of any supernatural event connected with him? Would you still make a claim to xianity based on the message of Jesus alone and not based on your belief in his alleged divinity and/or supernatural ability?

David: If things were different things would certainly be different. I can't make any predictions about what I would be if the Bible's message was different.

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Have believers not invested some meaning in their belief? A great many unbelievers began as believers who reached a point when they could no longer reconcile the contradictions, discrepancies, and absurdities to perpetuate their belief.

Xian apologetics is ample evidence that believers are incapable of being objective because it relies heavily on �might have been� and �possibly�.

David: I agree.

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I�ve personally been attacked both verbally and physically for my unbelief. Quite recently I lost some business based solely on my unbelief and not due in any way to an inability to perform the task.

David: That is unfortunate. I oppose all of these behaviors.

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This statement is the pinnacle of ignorance and I find the accusation highly offensive.

My unbelief is not in any way based upon a desire to set myself apart from �mainstream� society to achieve a feeling of uniqueness.

You claimed in another thread that you came to this board to learn about atheists/agnostics, but after reading this statement it is apparent that you have already formed an opinion about them. As long as ignorance dictates your beliefs, you will never obtain an intelligent understanding of the world around you or the people who inhabit it.

David: You are too sensitive. Atheists routinely make such comments about Christians, matter of factly as if they were self-evidently true.

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Yes and no. While on the surface the claim is to the same God; judaism, xianity, islam each give different attributes to this God which is the point you are supposed to be defending. For instance, xianity alone makes the claim of the Trinity, which is not accepted by either Judaism or Islam. This is an important attribute that is not shared among the three.

David: There are differences, nonetheless Christians consider their God the same as the God of Abraham, and Muslims consider their God the same as the Christian and Jewish God.

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What specific attributes are common between the deities of the polytheistic and monotheistic religions? If only the transcendental qualities are comparable, but not any specific attributes, then I would say your argument is seriously flawed, as each deity possesses many more attributes than just the transcendental qualities you are referring to.

David: The transcendental qualities are the only relevant qualities of God.

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I did not claim there were more dissimilarities than similarities between xian denominations. You misread my post. Look at it again. My claim was that there were more dissimilarities than similarities between RELIGIONS.

David; Of course, religions are dissimilar. If they were too similar they would lose their identity.

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I did not claim that ALL belief in the supernatural has died out; in fact I stated just the opposite. However, it is apparent that most claims of supernatural causes for events are no longer accepted when natural explanations have been discovered. For example, the majority of people now accept mental illness as a fact rather than claiming a person is possessed by devils.

David: I agree, and that is a good thing.

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This is another unsupported and offensive accusation that you have leveled against me. I never made the claim that I am in any way better than the mass of humanity. If you are unable to refrain from these attacks of my character without any supporting evidence, then I will not be able to continue this discourse with you as it will be evident you are not interested in intelligent conversation.

If however, you are genuinely here to learn about the beliefs/opinions/convictions of others, and myself, then I invite you to examine them as closely as you wish and point out any areas in which you feel I have reached an irrational or unreasonable conclusion. I do not hide behind the veil of vagueness and will be as specific in my explanations as you wish.

David: You need not be so sensitive. I think that irrational and unreasonable ideas are common attributes of humans because no one in infallible, no one is free from ignorance and no one is free from error. I am not insulting you at all, nor am I attacking your character. I am only being honest in describing the flaws of human intellect.

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You did not address my point. How are we to discern fact from fiction without any substantial evidence to support claims of the supernatural?

If we are to believe every supernatural claim based solely on the word of others and without any supporting evidence, then we are forced to believe every alleged siting of Elvis, every claim of ghosts, every supernatural claim in general. What a poor people we would be if nobody ever sought the truth.

David: We are not obligated to believe everything. We believe only those things which we choose to believe according to whatever standard of evidence and reason is useful to us.

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People are not born believers, however. In general their family and the society in which they live indoctrinate them into belief. It seems strange that xians would spend so much time evangelizing the bible to people in third world countries when the bible was written only for those who already believe.

David: Those people can learn a lot from the Bible if they read and understand it. I believe that all such educational and evangelical efforts are beneficial even if they serve only to introduce people to religious ideas which are different from their own.

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Lack of any substantial evidence to validate the existence of God(s) or the supernatural is the foundation of my lack of belief in both. It is not however, the only reason for why I do not believe.

David: If that is the reason why you don't believe in God, and that is the only reason why you don't believe in God, you need not react sensitively to my "wild accusation". My accusation is by no means a wild one, for several atheists have already declared that they would not believe and/or worship my God because they find His absolute power offensive.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-14-2002, 07:30 PM

Hello Helen,

Quote:

I'm a bit confused why you're asking...I remember when you said you wouldn't answer me because my comments weren't relevant.

Is this relevant?

David: I think it is directly relevant to the subject matter. Would you say that you love God? That you have accepted Christ as your personal savior? Are you a born again Christian?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

rainbow walking · 07-14-2002, 07:37 PM

David: I do believe that the geneaologies are not literal. There are alternative explanations possible for these ages.

rw: And I am immensely interested in hearing them.

HelenM · 07-15-2002, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
Hello Helen,

David: I think it is directly relevant to the subject matter. Would you say that you love God? That you have accepted Christ as your personal savior? Are you a born again Christian?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

You need to explain to me what these terms mean:

1) love God
2) Have accepted Christ as my personal savior
and
3) Born again Christian

so that I can answer without misleading you

At my church, I would say 'yes'. But I don't know what they mean to you. And anyway, at church they all assume I am because I know the Bible and say all the right things - so they never ask. They are satisfied based on how I am and what I say, that I am what they mean, by those things. (If I wasn't I wouldn't be able to say "Jesus is Lord", etc etc)

And on these boards I feel like they are somewhat meaningless jargon that I try to stay away from.

Either that or, the experience of the people here, with those who use those terms, is so negative, that I want to avoid them rather than bringing up unpleasant associations, which would not do me any good, as far as I can tell.

I would rather deal in substance and meaning, to those I am interacting with, than by aligning or not aligning, on some Christian phrases. Even if at least one of them is Bible-based ('born-again' is from John 3, as you would know, I expect)

I hate to use language to play games such as conveying superiority or to say "we're in the same club!" I think it's for communicating and that's what I try to do with it.

love
Helen

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]

abe smith · 07-15-2002, 04:56 AM

I don't read posts longer than one-frame long. Jabber-on , you philosophes.

Ryanfire · 07-15-2002, 06:57 AM

Quote:

David: I suppose that union with God is a pleasant experience for the soul, sort of like returning home after a long trip; separation from God is probably a terrible state for the soul, sort of like the intense loneliness people feel when they are permanently separated from their loved ones.

Okay what is a pleasant experience for the soul? Human longevity currently is not a long trip, it is a short walk, for that matter.. a few steps.
You mention intense loneliness.. can you understand that's because humans feel alone on a small pale blue dot? Is that not hell already?
That's why humans think of god, or aliens. Just something to help us deal with our loneliness.

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David: If you want to live eternally in human form, I certainly won't prevent you from doing so.

Would you mind spreading this message around to other theists? That the soul no matter what state it exists in, has the right to exist.

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David: God's existence is intrinsic, hence He does not need any cause for existence.

How do you know this? Perhaps some god has created your god, ever consider that possibility?

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David: The human body is a gift that I can abandon. I always search for the truth, that is why I am here talking with you.

You may abandon it, but no need to take others with you against their will. Religion corrupts children before they can even come into the age of reason. I'm glad you search for truth, but you don't trust what it is to be human. As far as I can tell, you only trust your soul.

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David: The spiritual senses have no attributes, they are strictly abstract intellectual concepts.

Right. Imagination.

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David: The square root of a negative number is an imaginary number. Do I have to explain to you why such numbers are considered imaginary?

No you don't need to explain them. They are exactly that, imaginary. I understand the definition of "imaginary". You are comparing apples to oranges. Both labelled fruits, but not the same make up.

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Humans just lack understanding. They are beautiful beings nonetheless
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David: I agree.

The concept of religion hasn't added much understanding to our intellect other than "god" exists, and that you must obey his word. Atheism lacks belief in the concept of god.

Naturalism and science are the future of understanding.

We'll eventually change what it means to be human, and evolve to greater beings of intelligence. Not because we're against god, but because we are in essence trying to become like our father. Anything to help our loneliness David.

This is why I choose to stay an agnostic. I keep all possibilities to my existence open.

HelenM · 07-15-2002, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
David: I suppose that union with God is a pleasant experience for the soul, sort of like returning home after a long trip; separation from God is probably a terrible state for the soul, sort of like the intense loneliness people feel when they are permanently separated from their loved ones.

What about people who go to heaven but whose loved ones go to hell?

Are they going to be intensely lonely in heaven?

love
Helen

B. H. Manners · 07-15-2002, 08:43 AM

Hello David,

I was reading where you stated that Genesis chapter one was an allegory. How do you know that the resurrection of Christ was not written as an allegory too?

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]

07-15-2002, 08:43 AM	#150
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	Hello David, I was reading where you stated that Genesis chapter one was an allegory. How do you know that the resurrection of Christ was not written as an allegory too? [ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]</p>

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07-14-2002, 07:37 PM	#145
rainbow walking Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Erewhon Posts: 2,608	David: I do believe that the geneaologies are not literal. There are alternative explanations possible for these ages. rw: And I am immensely interested in hearing them.

07-15-2002, 04:56 AM	#147
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	I don't read posts longer than one-frame long. Jabber-on , you philosophes.

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