pug846

bbt said:

Oh please – “the last group in this country that it’s still okay…to discriminate again…” – are you serious? Does anyone really believe this? What does everyone in this country like to feel like a victim?

Laws against atheists being held in office? Ignoring the fact that those laws are no longer valid and so they aren’t evidence of current discrimination, it won’t be until later this year that homosexuals can be homosexual without violating the laws of varying cities.

How many hate crimes are there in this country against homosexuals? Against atheists?

Further, there are tons of groups society thinks its okay to discriminate against that most of us here have no problem with – child molesters, murders, etc. So your original statement, without qualifications, would be false on the face of it.

Toto

I agree that our tendency to portray ourselves as victims can be way overdone.

But I don't know how many hate crimes there are against atheists because no one collects those statistics. Most atheists feel like they have to stay in the closet to keep their jobs or do business or be in politics. There was a recent teenage poster here who was kicked out of his home by his father when he said he didn't believe in God. These are not trivial, although there is no legal solution for most of them.

enigma555

Yes.

http://www.peachkin.com/bush.html

The man in question has not apologized for the statement to this day. That statement was made not long before he was elected President of the United States.

While this:

http://secularsouth.org/show.php?col...elt&story_id=3

is hardly enough to prove that discrimination exists throughout this country, it does cite several examples of one person's discrimination.

Gays and atheists are the only two groups that it is acceptable to hate in this country.

Bumble Bee Tuna

I did not say 'atheists are the only group that is discriminated against'. I said 'atheists are the last group in this country that it's still ok in society to discriminate against'

You'll notice huge media play for any instance of discrimination against gays, or blacks, or any other discriminated group. You won't find the same for atheists.

-B

The Other Michael

hello enigma555,

My understanding is that the GW the first quote has not been corroborated. It may be true, but other than the reporter, I don't think any third party has been able to confirm that Bush actually said it.

But I may have missed seeing something and could be wrong. maybe Toto or one of the regulars can address that.

cheers,
Michael

Toto

The quote was only heard by one reporter, Rob Sherman. GHWBush did not deny making the quote. The president of the Atheist Alliance does not recommend relying on the quote.

The Other Michael

Thanks Toto.

We get enough flak as it is without using a quote that may be "questionable" and therefore easily challenged as a way to sidetrack things.

cheers,
Michael

pug846

Society doesn't think it is okay to discriminate against child molesters?

And I still think you have nothing but empty rhetoric and a hand full of antedotal stories to support that it's okay in society to discriminate against atheists.

Javaman

pug846, perhaps it would be helpful to you if the term "law-abiding" was added to "groups". While it is true that you can group people into limitless categories, I think it's true that this discussion pertains to specific categories like gender, race, sexual preference, and religion. I suppose you could argue that child molesters fall under "sexual preference" but I certainly wouldn't.

Try this next time you see a story about atheists in the media; substitute the word "Jew" (or "African American") for "atheist" and see if it's still no big deal.

Toto

A few years ago, I started to keep track of the use of the term "atheist" in the media. The most common use of the word "atheist" in the past 50 years was as part of the term "atheistic communism," but with the end of the cold war, this term dropped from popular vocabulary, and it seemed to me that most of the references I found were tending towards neutral or positive. The main problem in the media, I observed, was a refusal to acknowledge that atheism existed, or that anyone didn't believe in god in some form.

I have noticed now that the people who talk about religious tolerance are adding the category of "no faith" to the call for dialog between people of "different faiths". Even the current president used that term.

I have stopped trying to keep track, but I recall very few recent stories about atheists except for the flurry around Michael Newdow. Most of the news stories that I can think of have been relatively positive, even when columnists have tended to be uncomplimentary. Even the stories about Newdow were mixed. He was portrayed at worst as a bit of a nutcase, but not as evil or any other stereotype. (Letters to the editor from Christian right wingers and remarks from stray celebrities are another case entirely.)

I can recall several articles about Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists, emphasizing how she is trying to mainstream the organization, and similar positive articles about Paul Kurtz of the Council for Secular Humanism.

There was a recent article the the New York Times Magazine about a disability rights lawyer meeting Peter Singer. Both were identified in the article as atheists. That article also mentioned Herb Silverman, who the disability rights lawyer identified as an atheist and one of the nicest people that she knew. (I am informed that the New York Times felt that it had to call Herb Silverman to be sure that he was ok with being identified as an atheist in public.)

A recent article in the New Yorker about PETA identifies the woman who heads it as an atheist (among other things). On the whole, the article is positive, since it indicates that PETA's crazy tactics have actually improved animal welfare and decreased suffering in factory farming.

It would be an interesting research project, that I don't have time for, to track the use of the word "atheist" or "atheism" in popular media.

At one time in not-so-distant history, the use of the word "Jew" was practically an insult, as it marked someone who could was not part of mainstream Christian society, and many Jews were careful to downplay or hide their heritage. You may still hear someone referred to as "the Jew so-and-so", if you know people from France. This is no longer the case in America. At some point the word "atheist" may undergo a similar change, if it hasn't already.