Amos

</strong>

Same thing. There can be no peace on earth because that would make heaven redundant and every mythology will have its own kind of heaven. </strong>

They will have become atheist and the oasis is not a place but a state of mind. </strong>

Sure, that is why I never capitalize the word protestant. Among those, at least Buddhism and Judiasm are not protestant and share the ultimate truth (they are very much transparent and can be compared with each other).

Harumi

Perchance,

In the fantasy series of Valdemar/Velgarth by Mercedes Lackey, the author created such a society. Two of them in fact. One is the Shin'a'in, the other is the Karsites. Both of their own personal deity who is deeply involved with their own people, and both deities purposely 'limit' themselves to allow their people to grow and learn through free will. They intervene only when large problems are supernatural or too terrible for people to solve themselves (this is a world of magic).

Lackey does show that even then, a society who knows the deity personally can be lead astray. There are problems for instance, with fakery, and because the deities believe in free will, the problem goes on.

If you're interested, I would suggest picking up a book from that series and read it...

...or is the reason why you're asking this question is because you've already read the series?

Whatever it is, she writes excellent stories. I fully recommend them.

Perchance

Hello, everyone, and Merry...uh, fourth week in December .

I think I'm beginning to see what you're getting at (equating mental peace with heaven). It's not a concept I'm very familiar with. I would think that heaven would still be needed, because in many conceptions that I've heard of it's supposedly a perfect place, and even with perfect knowledge of God, the world itself would still be a harsh place.

What's wrong with that?

So no atheist scholars will know true peace?

There are so many definitions of ultimate truth that I have to wonder which one you mean. Besides, if you're talking about these religions as protestant because they "protest" against Catholicism, then one could also look at Catholicism as protestant to the other religions (or at least the older ones, such as Judaism and Hinduism).

******
I have read a few of the books (not all of them; the Last Herald-Mage trilogy, the Mage Winds trilogy, and The Black Gryphon). I hadn't thought that those societies were meant as 'perfect-knowledge' societies. I thought they were of a piece with many religions in fantasy worlds: it's technically impossible to be an atheist, because one knows that the gods exist, but the gods are not perfectly comprehended, any more than the gods on our own world are. Existence is there, understanding is not.

If they are meant as "perfect-knowledge" societies, then there are various ways they react to the societies around them. The Shin'a'in seem to ignore them, and the Karsites wage war on Valdemar for a good part of the series.

To be honest, I hadn't thought of either the Shin'a'in Goddess or Vkandis Sunlord this way, simply because they seemed to fit more into the fantasy types of "maiden/mother/crone goddess" and "sun god." And they were Good, and to be exempted from blame. I enjoy Lackey's stories on one level, but on another I have a problem with their deep dualism.

-Perchance.

[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]

[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]</p>

Amos

</strong>

That is why such a society cannot be conceived to exist, and yes, those in heaven can clearly see the chaos in the lives of those on earth and the innovative methods they invent to seek relief from this self alienation. </strong>

Nothing, except that each must deal with his or her own own version of impoverishment as man created in the image of God. </strong>

That is never mine to say but I would call it a severe handicap. There is only one Ultimate truth: God is love and Lord God Life and such is Lord God the continuity of Love. In short this means that love is needed to sustain live or beauty is needed for the continuity of truth.

Edited to add that this is a universal truth wherein "This is my body" is equal to "This is Buddha."

[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Perchance

Hello, Amos.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amos

Quote:

That is why such a society cannot be conceived to exist, and yes, those in heaven can clearly see the chaos in the lives of those on earth and the innovative methods they invent to seek relief from this self alienation.

"Innovative" is a word that seems to point up the advantages of this method and the disadvantages of ever ultimately coming to peace, though. This method can seek new ways and create new things, which apparently perfect knowledge/heaven/achieving heaven cannot. Perhaps no perfect knowledge is ever preferable, then, even in heaven?

But what happens if an atheist scholar doesn't feel impoverished? Though I wouldn't presume to call myself a scholar, I am an atheist who doesn't feel impoverished. I literally see no way that religious worship could fit into or improve my life.

But it does seem to produce new discoveries, move things forward. Would this be a fair trade for no inner peace? (I think it would be, but I'm also interested in hearing your answer).

Does it have to be love of god, though? Or could it also be love of humanity and new and beautiful things?

What about "This is my mind?"

-Perchance.

-RRH-

I think that this society would start to demonstrate its difference from other religions.

1) Most importantly, they would lose almost no adherents. (And those losses would consist of the mentally delusional.)

2) They would have very little in the way of internal disputes, but would not have any visible cult-like methods to quell such disputes. (Intimidation, propaganda, etc.)

3) Related to number 2, there would be no splits, splinter groups, etc.

4) If the god wished its subjects to proselytize, they would be capable of demonstrating feats of mentalism for the rest of the world. These feats would be demonstrable in controlled test environments.

Amos

You are correct about all of the above and nobody is telling you any different except that for the very reason you wrote can such a religion not exist. We must be outside of heaven to seek, find, create and procreate and finally find peace on earth which can become heaven on earth.

Perchance

Hello everyone.

Why these in particular? Do you think a deity would find it impossible to reach through mental illness, or would it simply not bother?

Because the deity would settle disputes? It seems as though they would still disagree about matters not related to the deity, unless the deity had a whole moral code with it about other things.

I agree that it would be pretty hard to form them, unless for some reason the deity wanted to present itself differently to two groups of people within the society, and at that point they might split off and form their own societies.

Two questions:

1) By "mentalism," do you mean psychic powers?

and

2) There might be a problem with demonstrating to nonbelievers that these powers actually came from a god, as opposed to the human brain or some other phenomenon. Is there a test you can think of that would point to a deity and nothing else? (Of course, if the deity revealed itself to nonbelievers, that would be one such test).

******

I thought you were saying that heaven was preferable to earth in the same way that perfect knowledge of God is preferable to imperfect knowledge of God. Perhaps you were simply saying that a society like the one I described is impossible, though.

Hard to tell .

-Perchance.

Amos

Heaven is the prefered state of mind but is not a possible until people 'get there.' Heaven can only begin after the first half of life. In Buddhism it is called the "yen" period and so Yang must precede Yin or involution must precede evolution. In our mythology the period of sin must precede salvation.

Perchance

But what about mythologies that have no period of sin? I think one reason that we're misunderstanding each other is because I'm thinking in hypothetical terms, and you're thinking in Catholic (I'm assuming) terms. Isn't it possible to conceive of a society where people have perfect knowledge of God but it isn't like heaven? Or do you think it isn't?

-Perchance.