shome42

Here's the thing...

I'm ultimately an hedonistic utilitarian atheist...if that makes any sense. I think the meaning of life is pleasure. The only reason I'll forsake a pleasure is if it will lead to some greater pain. The only reason I'll endure pain is if it will lead to some greater pleasure. There is no God; there's only life on Earth. Period.

So the question for me becomes-- Is being an atheist leading to greater pleasure in my life???

I'm not sure about the answer. In many respects, because America is so heavily theistic, I'm undeniably making life harder for myself by being in the minority. I'm choosing pain. There are many pragmatic implications to being an atheist that lead to pain. For example, reduced choice of mates, problems with family, problems at work and a general feeling of alienation.

In other respects being an atheist offers me mental happiness. I'm not plagued by guilt. I'm not worried about what happens after I die. I'm at ease knowing that I can ignore theistic diatribes. I also get a cerebral pleasure for learning about and refining my arguments against religion.

It's a hard decision to make. Probably whoever's reading this is thinking, "How can you just choose to believe in God when you intellectually know it's B.S.?" Well, I'll tell you how-- a little good, old-fashioned delusion. I take pride in being able to convince myself of anything. I have no doubt that if I decide theism will lead to more happiness, I could convince myself of God's existence with a little work.

If I were to go back to theism, I'd likely choose a liberal Christian philosophy that's all inclusive and anti-dogmatic. It would just be a means for me to count myself in the majority, to make my life easier and, most importantly, to lead to more pleasure. I'd rationalize my beliefs such that I wouldn't really have to modify my behavior much.

I'm just curious if anyone else has had similar thoughts, and I wanted to get opinions about where I might be wrong. :banghead:

beth

unless you truly believe in Christ, why lie to yourself? It is not good to live a lie and delude yourself. In order to go from atheism to theism, you have to suspend critical thinking. I know this because I was an atheist as a kid.

shome42

That's the thing-- I can CHOOSE what I want to believe. I can convince myself of anything. So why lie to myself? Because, as I said, I think there ultimate point of life is pleasure; therefore, if lying to myself will lead to greater pleaser, lying seems to be the best choice.

Indeed, I will have to suspend critical thinking, but only in that one area of my life. I can think as I do now in every other respect.

I'm just curious about the hedonistic arguments for atheism if theism leads to the greatest pleasure. If this is the only life we have to live, why make things harder for ourselves? Especially if we have the ability to convince ourselves of God's existence.

Don't get me wrong. I'll never be able to believe that the Bible is literally true or some nonsense like that, but I could certainly subscribe to some liberal Uniterianesque brand of Christianity.

BTW, I'm no philosophy scholar, so if I'm misusing some of these terms then feel free to correct me.

beastmaster

I share your hedonistic viewpoint and I agree that there is nothing immoral about choosing to delude yourself if it makes you happy.

However, I think that belief in god will require more than "a little work."

Specifically, you will need to construct a mental filter to block out the overwhelming evidence of god's non-existence and the evidence that, if god exists, then he is nothing like anything you would want to worship.

I think such a mental filter would be the cause of a tremendous amount of anxiety if you are a curious person.

.02

Buddrow_Wilson

Man, I almost wish I could do what you are suggesting. But I know I can not purposely delude myself. My delusions have all been non-intentional. So, I have thought "Wouldn't life be easier if I could just pretend to be a christian?" Well, growing up, I went to church at times. I would spout out what they wanted to hear, but never believed it. I was very stressed out and unhappy, I felt like a fraud every moment I was in a church. And this was while being forced to go by my mother.

I know being atheist, I often feel alienated from the rest of humanity. But even in this I feel a bittersweet pleasure in that I can say I am one of the few facing reality.

Also faith and religion, in general, instill in me a sense of fear or danger. They are trying to force you to follow a set of mostly arbitrary rules. Yet there are ulterior motives in many instances.

I could not live that life, even if I wanted to. In effect, for me, there is no choice.

Nostalgic Pushhead

If the main religions weren't so horrid, I'd be up for getting brainwashed and joining in. Must make life a lot easier.
But, I really dislike most religions, for specific reasons, so thats not going to happen.

Have you looked at Buddhism? Good thread on it right now somewhere... Thats the direct opposite of "living for pleasure" so I doubt you'd like it much.

shome42

No, see, quality delusion requires WAY more creativity than that.
Once you throw off the restrictions of dogmatic organized Christianity, you can basically make Christianity anything you want, to the point where it barely resembles what's in the Bible. You stop arguing about little details here and there.

For example, I could easily convince myself that all brands of Xianity are man-made fabrications. The only true way to know God is through self-discovery. I may read the Bible only for "inspiration," not divine guidance. Once you get to that point, all it takes is some meditation and determination to completely believe your own B.S. You'd basically be creating your own beliefs about God (who could be anything, even a metaphor for the universe) and calling those beliefs Xianity.

As I said, it just takes a little creativity, lots of determination, and some serious rationalization then, bada bing, you're part of the majority again.

Oh, and on a side note, I happen to think the ability to believe your own B.S. is the key to happiness. If you can do that, you can always convince yourself whatever happens is a good thing.

Shadowy Man

So why can't you convince yourself that you are happy the way you are?

shome42

Ok, you got me, saying that I can convince myself of anything was a bit of an exagerration. More accurately, I can convince myself many things, ranging from things that are easy to believe to things that are harder to believe. It's just a question of how much work it will take to achieve complete delusion. Naturally, easier things will require less work.

Going back to Xianity would be fairly easy for me because I'm an ex-theist with years of rationalization under my belt.

So from a hedonistic standpoint, it becomes a pain vs. pleasure equation. Given that it would take little pain to convince myself of God's existence, and that doing so would yield much pleasure because we live in a theistic society, I'm thinking it's a good deal.

How's that?

beastmaster

Fair enough, but you are just fabricating a different kind of filter.

The problem with Xnty is that the Xn forms a conclusion and then filters information to preserve that conclusion from challenge.

A freethinker, in contrast, rejects filters, accepts all incoming information, critically assesses it, and then forms conclusions that are open to revision based on future information.

Now, we're only humans, so I spose we all have certain sacred conclusions that we construct filters to protect.

But for me, such filters are to be avoided, not because they are immoral, but because they make me unhappy.

I'm simply a curious person -- an information sponge -- and filters just get in the way of my happiness.

Maybe you are wired differently.