Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lunachick · 05-31-2003, 08:09 PM

I watched Donnie Darko for the first time last night, and the cellar door reference has been bugging me all morning. So I did a little homework.

The reference was Tolkiens.

Quote:

One thing was important to Tolkien. Languages should be beautiful. Their sound should be pleasing. Tolkien tasted languages, and his taste was finely tuned. Latin, Spanish and Gothic were pleasing. Greek was great. Italian was wonderful. But French, often hailed as a beautiful language, gave him little pleasure.
But heaven itself was called Welsh. In his essay "English and Welsh", Tolkien recalls how he once saw the words Adeiladwyd 1887 (It was built 1887) cut on a stone-slab. It was a revelation of beauty. "It pierced my linguistic heart," he recalls. It turned out that Welsh was full of such wonderful words. Tolkien found it difficult to communicate to others what really was so great about them, but in his essay he makes an honest attempt: "Most English-speaking people...will admit that cellar door is 'beautiful', especially if dissociated from its sense (and from its spelling). More beautiful than, say, sky, and far more beautiful than beautiful. Well then, in Welsh for me cellar doors are extraordinarily frequent, and moving to the higher dimension, the words in which there is pleasure in the contemplation of the association of form and sense are abundant." He then lists concrete examples like Welsh wybren being "more pleasing" than English sky. -MC p. 190-193.

My thoughts on this:

Perhaps the cellar door, as Tolkien saw it - a phrase, that when you disassociate sense and meditate on sound, transcends all meaning and moves to a higher dimension or a beauty beyond beauty - is parallel with Donnie's 28 end days in an alternate reality.
Also, the cellar door could mean time travel - the doors of perception, and surrealism - iirc, some of the opening scenes were reminded me, in style, of Magritte, "...visible images which conceal nothing; they evoke mystery and, indeed, when one sees one of my pictures, one asks oneself this simple question 'What does that mean'? It does not mean anything, because mystery means nothing either, it is unknowable."

Also, perhaps it means that Donnie is most beautiful when he is not making sense, and that he has a very refined sense of beauty - the film is beautiful in it's language and how it is shot - it doesn't always make sense, but it doesn't need to to be beautiful.

Okay, I'm waffling now. I keep thinking about it. I'll stop.

What do you think? Does anyone have any further insights to this remarkable film? I'm going to watch it again tonight to see what else I can pick up and put together...
_________________

August Spies · 05-31-2003, 11:37 PM

i don't think I can respect anyone that thinks Spanish (!) is more beautiful than French.

spanish is one of the ugliest langauges ive ever heard. (and yes I studied it for several years)

/waits for flames

lunachick · 05-31-2003, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by August Spies
i don't think I can respect anyone that thinks Spanish (!) is more beautiful than French.

spanish is one of the ugliest langauges ive ever heard. (and yes I studied it for several years)

/waits for flames

*Needs adrenaline shot to get heart started again - gulps desparately at the air to refil lings*

Mr. Spies,

How could you say such a thing? Spanish and Italian are beautiful languages! French is okay, but oh, it's Italian, then Spanish that makes my toes curl first.

August Spies · 05-31-2003, 11:59 PM

Now Italian is pretty beautiful, perhaps as much as french. though some of the things it does are annoying (haveing EVERYTHING end in a vowel sound)

but spanish is just BLAH. I tried to like it, first language I tried studying. but uh... its so ugly. Especially the Mexican spanish we learned in school (Argentinian and Catalonian accents are fairly nice, but the majority of spanish accents ive heard are just grating.)

Although thinkign about it I dont' know anyone that acutally likes Spanish as a langauge that do not know the language....and everyone always thinks the language they know is beautiful.

Perhaps Spanish only seems so ugly when compared to its cousins, French and Italian.

EDIT: please note that this isn't a ethnic thing. A large large number of my close friends are Hispanic (a reason ive heard so many different accents). My girlfriend is ecuadorian etc...

""Speak in French when you can't think of the English for a thing." ~red queen to Alice

Wounded King · 06-03-2003, 02:54 AM

Im put in mind of the scene in A Fish Called Wanda where John Cleese works Jamie Lee Curtis into a frenzy with his Russian.

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05-31-2003, 11:37 PM	#2
August Spies Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The Vine Posts: 12,950	i don't think I can respect anyone that thinks Spanish (!) is more beautiful than French. spanish is one of the ugliest langauges ive ever heard. (and yes I studied it for several years) /waits for flames

05-31-2003, 11:59 PM	#4
August Spies Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The Vine Posts: 12,950	Now Italian is pretty beautiful, perhaps as much as french. though some of the things it does are annoying (haveing EVERYTHING end in a vowel sound) but spanish is just BLAH. I tried to like it, first language I tried studying. but uh... its so ugly. Especially the Mexican spanish we learned in school (Argentinian and Catalonian accents are fairly nice, but the majority of spanish accents ive heard are just grating.) Although thinkign about it I dont' know anyone that acutally likes Spanish as a langauge that do not know the language....and everyone always thinks the language they know is beautiful. Perhaps Spanish only seems so ugly when compared to its cousins, French and Italian. EDIT: please note that this isn't a ethnic thing. A large large number of my close friends are Hispanic (a reason ive heard so many different accents). My girlfriend is ecuadorian etc... ""Speak in French when you can't think of the English for a thing." ~red queen to Alice

06-03-2003, 02:54 AM	#5
Wounded King Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 1,211	Im put in mind of the scene in A Fish Called Wanda where John Cleese works Jamie Lee Curtis into a frenzy with his Russian.

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