Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvenoy · 01-01-2003, 06:21 PM

Hmph. I was hoping that he was someone's sock puppet. We could'a had some fun.

Drive-by trolls are a drag.

Edired for weird spelling.

doov

Chimp · 01-01-2003, 09:03 PM

If my interpretation is correct, DNA is the basis for all life on Earth. The blueprint contained in each and every cell. The two strands of the double helix structure of DNA are inked by base pairs, threads in a spiral. There are four bases adenine, guanine, thymine, and cytosine. The order that they occur along the spiral are the patterns necessary for the DNA to assemble an organism and reproduce itself.

As the DNA replicates itself...there are occasional errors in the order of the bases along the spiral. Mostly these errors spell doom for the DNA making it less likely to reproduce itself.

Yet the laws of probability explain that some of these errors will be benificial, and it will INCREASE the chances of the DNA reproducing and surviving. Complexity can increase because nature recieves abundant energy FROM the sun.

The laws of probability say this not only happens but as the span of time gets longer and longer the chances of "benificial mutations" occurring INCREASE.

Evolutionists gather data and create models to correspond WITH the data.

Creationism has no viable models.

Chimp

Darwin's Beagle · 01-02-2003, 06:19 PM

Chimp==
If my interpretation is correct,

DB=
It's pretty good but there are some minor errors.

Chimp==
DNA is the basis for all life on Earth. The blueprint contained in each and every cell.

DB=
If you exclude viruses (some of which use RNA as their genetic material) from your category of "Life", you are correct ... now. It is thought that there were metabolizing, self-reproducing entities before DNA ever arose (possibly as long ago as 3.8 to 4.0 billion years ago). RNA almost certainly came before DNA as the main storage molecule of genetic information. DNA probably proved more "fit" and took over the role.

Chimp==
The two strands of the double helix structure of DNA are inked by base pairs, threads in a spiral. There are four bases adenine, guanine, thymine, and cytosine. The order that they occur along the spiral are the patterns necessary for the DNA to assemble an organism and reproduce itself.

DB=
That's OK.

Chimp==
As the DNA replicates itself...there are occasional errors in the order of the bases along the spiral. Mostly these errors spell doom for the DNA making it less likely to reproduce itself.

DB=
Surprisingly, this is wrong. Mootoo Kimura in the 1980's showed that MOST mutations do not affect the fitness of the organism either positively or negatively. By "fitness" I mean the organism's ability to transmit its genome into succeeding generations. Thus, MOST MUTATIONS ARE NEUTRAL.

Chimp==
Yet the laws of probability explain that some of these errors will be benificial, and it will INCREASE the chances of the DNA reproducing and surviving. Complexity can increase because nature recieves abundant energy FROM the sun.

DB=
Very good.

Chimp==
The laws of probability say this not only happens but as the span of time gets longer and longer the chances of "benificial mutations" occurring INCREASE.

DB=
Yes, or maybe no. Mutations occur randomly with respect to fitness. So the odds that a specified mutation will occur at time t is no different that the odds that it time 2t or 3t etc. But of course, if you are given that the specified mutation will occur, then it is more likely to have occured by the later times.

There is another factor that I think is equally (OK ... actually I think it is much more) important. Those neutral mutations that have been increasing the genetic diversity are neutral in a particular environment. As times goes on the environment is likely to change. Thus, previously hidden defects and benefits are more likely to appear. It is my personal view that this is the most common mechanism for evolution.

Chimp==
Evolutionists gather data and create models to correspond WITH the data.

Creationism has no viable models.

Chimp

DB=
I completely agree with this.

Regards,
DB

Chimp · 01-03-2003, 01:56 AM

Thank you for the information Darwin's Beagle!

Chimp :notworthy

thebeave · 01-03-2003, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chimp

Thank you for the information Darwin's Beagle!

Chimp :notworthy

If that picture doesn't prove man and chimps are related, then nothing will.

Quiz: Which creature is more intelligent?

The one on the left believes that when he dies, his "soul" will rise from his body to a magical eternal playground in the sky where he will spend all of eternity worshipping his invisible sky daddy and his son. All those who don't believe like he does will spend an eternity in a lake of fire, weeping and gnashing their teeth.

The one on the right has no opinion about his existence or non-existence after death.

Chimp · 01-03-2003, 10:18 AM

Questions:

The story of creation has severe logical flaws.

(1.) God creates the Earth is 6 days. Many stars, observed by the Hubble telescope, are more than 6000 light years distant, millions and even billions of light years in distance from the Earth, yet we can observe these stars.

How did this light travel such a far distance in the short span of time, that time being the 6000 years allowed by Biblical creation.

(2.) God creates all life and the dinosaurs too, yet thousands of species have gone extinct. Why did so many animals created BY God go extinct? Where are the dinosaurs?

Why are apes and humans so closely related? Their DNA is almost identical.

(3.) A being as intelligent as "Lucifer" would realize the impossibility of rebelling against God. So why did this no.1 angel rebel?

This story of angel rebellion sounds ad-hoc and anthropmorphic.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 01-03-2003, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chimp
Questions:

The story of creation has severe logical flaws.

(1.) God creates the Earth is 6 days. Many stars, observed by the Hubble telescope, are more than 6000 light years distant, millions and even billions of light years in distance from the Earth, yet we can observe these stars.

How did this light travel such a far distance in the short span of time, that time being the 6000 years allowed by Biblical creation.

To a creationist, it didn't. God created the light in transit. Either that, or the distances are evilutionist lies designed to steal your soul from God.

Quote:

(2.) God creates all life and the dinosaurs too, yet thousands of species have gone extinct. Why did so many animals created BY God go extinct? Where are the dinosaurs?

Why are apes and humans so closely related? Their DNA is almost identical.

God got pissed off at them. I guess they musta sinned or sumat.

Quote:

(3.) A being as intelligent as "Lucifer" would realize the impossibility of rebelling against God. So why did this no.1 angel rebel?

Quote:

"People should know when they are beaten."
"Would you Quintus? Would I?"

Quote:

This story of angel rebellion sounds ad-hoc and anthropmorphic.

No shit.

Dark Jedi · 01-03-2003, 12:44 PM

I get the impression this guy gets his scientific education from chick.com....

pz · 01-03-2003, 01:33 PM

By the way, whatever happened to "thebeast"? He seems to have tucked his tail between his legs and scampered.

braces_for_impact · 01-03-2003, 01:36 PM

He's off doing drive by's in other forums and very busy judging others by god's law.

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01-01-2003, 06:21 PM	#31
Duvenoy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Just another hick from the sticks. Posts: 1,108	Hmph. I was hoping that he was someone's sock puppet. We could'a had some fun. Drive-by trolls are a drag. Edired for weird spelling. doov

01-01-2003, 09:03 PM	#32
Chimp Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: USA Posts: 376	If my interpretation is correct, DNA is the basis for all life on Earth. The blueprint contained in each and every cell. The two strands of the double helix structure of DNA are inked by base pairs, threads in a spiral. There are four bases adenine, guanine, thymine, and cytosine. The order that they occur along the spiral are the patterns necessary for the DNA to assemble an organism and reproduce itself. As the DNA replicates itself...there are occasional errors in the order of the bases along the spiral. Mostly these errors spell doom for the DNA making it less likely to reproduce itself. Yet the laws of probability explain that some of these errors will be benificial, and it will INCREASE the chances of the DNA reproducing and surviving. Complexity can increase because nature recieves abundant energy FROM the sun. The laws of probability say this not only happens but as the span of time gets longer and longer the chances of "benificial mutations" occurring INCREASE. Evolutionists gather data and create models to correspond WITH the data. Creationism has no viable models. Chimp

01-02-2003, 06:19 PM	#33
Darwin's Beagle Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 62	Chimp== If my interpretation is correct, DB= It's pretty good but there are some minor errors. Chimp== DNA is the basis for all life on Earth. The blueprint contained in each and every cell. DB= If you exclude viruses (some of which use RNA as their genetic material) from your category of "Life", you are correct ... now. It is thought that there were metabolizing, self-reproducing entities before DNA ever arose (possibly as long ago as 3.8 to 4.0 billion years ago). RNA almost certainly came before DNA as the main storage molecule of genetic information. DNA probably proved more "fit" and took over the role. Chimp== The two strands of the double helix structure of DNA are inked by base pairs, threads in a spiral. There are four bases adenine, guanine, thymine, and cytosine. The order that they occur along the spiral are the patterns necessary for the DNA to assemble an organism and reproduce itself. DB= That's OK. Chimp== As the DNA replicates itself...there are occasional errors in the order of the bases along the spiral. Mostly these errors spell doom for the DNA making it less likely to reproduce itself. DB= Surprisingly, this is wrong. Mootoo Kimura in the 1980's showed that MOST mutations do not affect the fitness of the organism either positively or negatively. By "fitness" I mean the organism's ability to transmit its genome into succeeding generations. Thus, MOST MUTATIONS ARE NEUTRAL. Chimp== Yet the laws of probability explain that some of these errors will be benificial, and it will INCREASE the chances of the DNA reproducing and surviving. Complexity can increase because nature recieves abundant energy FROM the sun. DB= Very good. Chimp== The laws of probability say this not only happens but as the span of time gets longer and longer the chances of "benificial mutations" occurring INCREASE. DB= Yes, or maybe no. Mutations occur randomly with respect to fitness. So the odds that a specified mutation will occur at time t is no different that the odds that it time 2t or 3t etc. But of course, if you are given that the specified mutation will occur, then it is more likely to have occured by the later times. There is another factor that I think is equally (OK ... actually I think it is much more) important. Those neutral mutations that have been increasing the genetic diversity are neutral in a particular environment. As times goes on the environment is likely to change. Thus, previously hidden defects and benefits are more likely to appear. It is my personal view that this is the most common mechanism for evolution. Chimp== Evolutionists gather data and create models to correspond WITH the data. Creationism has no viable models. Chimp DB= I completely agree with this. Regards, DB

01-03-2003, 01:56 AM	#34
Chimp Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: USA Posts: 376	Thank you for the information Darwin's Beagle! Chimp :notworthy

01-03-2003, 10:18 AM	#36
Chimp Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: USA Posts: 376	Questions: The story of creation has severe logical flaws. (1.) God creates the Earth is 6 days. Many stars, observed by the Hubble telescope, are more than 6000 light years distant, millions and even billions of light years in distance from the Earth, yet we can observe these stars. How did this light travel such a far distance in the short span of time, that time being the 6000 years allowed by Biblical creation. (2.) God creates all life and the dinosaurs too, yet thousands of species have gone extinct. Why did so many animals created BY God go extinct? Where are the dinosaurs? Why are apes and humans so closely related? Their DNA is almost identical. (3.) A being as intelligent as "Lucifer" would realize the impossibility of rebelling against God. So why did this no.1 angel rebel? This story of angel rebellion sounds ad-hoc and anthropmorphic.

01-03-2003, 12:44 PM	#38
Dark Jedi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 4,666	I get the impression this guy gets his scientific education from chick.com....

01-03-2003, 01:33 PM	#39
pz Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Morris, MN Posts: 3,341	By the way, whatever happened to "thebeast"? He seems to have tucked his tail between his legs and scampered.

01-03-2003, 01:36 PM	#40
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	He's off doing drive by's in other forums and very busy judging others by god's law.

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