Bumble Bee Tuna

The practical result will be being correct more often.

Not sure how you're defining "positive" though. It truly depends on what premises the individual is starting with. It's possible to rationally have a negative impact on others. If I start with the premise that things that make me feel good are to be desired, and things that make me feel bad are to be avoided, I can easily rationally make decisions that negatively affect others. For the most part, most people will not do so because they have been taught that causing negative effects on others is bad. This teaching will make doing bad things have a negative effect on the doer's psyche, and thus the doer will want to avoid them, rationally.

I'm not trying to claim that rationality is some supreme good. It is nothing of the sort. All I am claiming is that RBAC is not rational. If you'd like to discuss this topic further, feel free to make a new topic (in MF&P, probably) instead of derailing this one.

-B

Bumble Bee Tuna

Wonderful strawman, but you're conveniently ignoring everything I've been saying. As AJ explained: There is no such thing as "very rational". The fact that you have made some rational decisions and in fact usually do make rational decisions does not change the fact that you are irrational. You have an irrational belief, and you think that that is a good thing. A rational person would not. Therefore, you are not rational. It really is that simple.

Nobody here is arguing that strawman position. Of course, you ARE "totally irrational" in the sense that that's the only way one can be irrational: you are either totally irrational or totally rational. However, I imagine you were trying to use the phrase 'totally irrational' to mean "always/almost always making irrational decisions". Nobody is making that ridiculous claim.

Nobody has lost to you. You just have a fundamental misconception of what this debate is actually about. Perhaps soon you'll figure out what we're all talking about, and we can begin, eh?

-B

Bumble Bee Tuna

A person with a phobia who ignored it would be irrational.
A mother who did not feel silly after caving into an irrational instinct would be irrational.
A person with strong spiritual feelings is being irrational.
Love is a natural instinct and loving someone is not in any sense irrational. Doing something irrational because you love someone is of course irrational, and a rational person would regret it afterwards.

See above. The definition works fine. I think the problem here is that you and RBAC appear to be equating irrational with unintelligent/bad. That the definition must have some problem because the definition says that most people are in fact irrational, but most aren't idiots so we don't like calling most people irrational. Well, irrational does not mean idiotic, and the truth is that the adjective "rational" only applies to a small percentage of people as a general character trait.

-B

Bumble Bee Tuna

wade- do we not have threads which call out other members constantly here? I've seen numerous threads:

"For Vanderzyden:"
"For Radorth:"
"The Ed Thread"
etc...

Always challenging the personal statements made by the user in the title. This thread is no different. It challenges the personal statement that RBAC used to make that his faith was rational. I don't really see what the difference here is.

-B

edit: whew! 5 posts in a row...Ugh

Sabine Grant

Bonjour Bumble Bee Tuna.... I do not believe BAC stated that his faith was rational or based on reason. What is challenged here is the fact that he was depicted as an irrational individual. So Wade is simply asking that we focus on what leading a rational life means. Some participants to this thread are implying or even stating that according " to their book" BAC is an irrational individual despite of how rationaly he may have led his life.
There is a difference between challenging a statement and establishing the character of a person.
I maintain that one cannot establish the overall level of rationality of another individual based on the premises of him being a theist.
Theists have access to all kinds of carrers and professions which require the use of reason. A christian doctor will not resort to praying and laying hands on a patient when a patient requires medical attention. He will exercise the medical skills which apply to the patient's condition. As a HHA, I have to exercise reason to care for my people. My choices in my job as well as daily life require that I use a thought process where I evaluate what the better outcome is to be.
I will not let my bed bound patients starve to death because I believe that God is going to send mana to feed them for example. I will feed them. That I may pray for them privatly behind my own closed doors does not interfere with my practical interaction with them.
Bumble Bee Tuna.... how do you evaluate that a person you socialize with or interact with personaly lead a rational life? what observations will you make? what do you look for to make that evaluation?

Bumble Bee Tuna

FOR THE LAST TIME:

When I say someone like RBAC is Irrational, IT DOES NOT MEAN that he is incapable of sometimes making rational decisions. In fact, most all irrational people are rational on the job- they know that if they start being irrational, they'll probably get fired. They learn to only act irrational when nobody forces them the other way, feeling free to believe in whatever quackery they can find.

-B

Nowhere357

Can you support this? It seems to me that this statement contradicts itself.

Irrationality is not some kind of a mental switch, and if it is - then turning it on when appropriate seems rational to me.

Rational BAC

Have no idea where any of you are going with this. I thought it was a slam dunk on my part. I could be wrong of course, but I don't think so.

Anyway, do not really plan to contribute to this thread because I do not really understand the atheist position on this and probably never will.

Will check back from time to time to see how this debate is going, though. Maybe I will learn something.
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PS---That ---eh-!---- part definitely sounds Canadian. Are you Canadian-- Bumble Bee? Maybe I already should know that.

I like Canadians ----two of my cousins are Canadian and one of my brothers got his PHd from Toronto U. ---

--even though, as everyone knows, Canadians can be very cheap and such poor tippers you know.

At least I know.

I hated to do service work for a snow bird Canadian--Were always super polite and then would nickle and dime you death to try to get a deduction on legitimate charges---and then use a Canadian credit card (and we all know what that means given the exchange rate) ------

-----and not even think about any kind of tip.

Now--- New Yorkers were the opposite in that way. Would make you feel ---during a service call --that you had met Satan himself. ---would ground you down into the ground-----

----and then give you an unheard of $10 or even a $20 tip. ------New Yorkers are such strange people.

(not to seriously mean to derail this thread or anything like that you all.)

Fight it out. OK with me.

AJ113

Agreed. If you are suggesting that this has been asserted anywhere in this thread then it is a fallacious strawman.

how do you evaluate that a person you socialize with or interact with personaly lead a rational life? what observations will you make? what do you look for to make that evaluation?

This was directed at BBT, who I'm sure will answer, but in the meantime, my own view is:

Anyone who is demonstrably acting irrationally in my opinion will come under scrutiny. Usually I can ascertain without interrogation that the person does not acknowledge that he is acting irrationally, and is prepared to defend his actions, in which case I would not change my views, but I would refrain from mentally branding him as an irrational person.

However, every now and then an individual will ACKNOWLEDGE that his actions are irrational, and yet despite this, continue with his actions, being comfortable with his own acknowledged irrationality. At that point I would class him as an irrational person.

Sabine Grant

Bonjour BBT..... can you please answer that specific question?