FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > IIDB ARCHIVE: 200X-2003, PD 2007 > IIDB Philosophical Forums (PRIOR TO JUN-2003)
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 05:55 AM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-22-2002, 07:19 PM   #11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,562
Post

Quote:
Evangelion
"The Word of God" is one of Jesus' eschatological titles (like "Son of Man" and "King of Kings"); it is not a description of what he actually is.
Yes, what you are giving me is the standard point of view.
What I am getting at is that the Word of God is personified in John 1:1 and in Revelation 19:13 but it is not Jesus.

It is the He (the word) who created heaven and earth

Psalm 33:6
By the word of God the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Anyway all I wanted to know is whether anyone pursued this possibility. It may not lead anywhere.
NOGO is offline  
Old 12-23-2002, 08:08 AM   #12
CX
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Portlandish
Posts: 2,829
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by NOGO:
[QB]We have been told that in John 1:1 the Word is Jesus.
But is he?
Well I think we need to look at the development of Christological dogma from Mark to John. GMk begins with Jesus' public ministry after his baptism by JBap. Matthew and Luke both connect Jesus back to precursors in human history (David in GMt and Adam in GLk). GJn takes jesus even further back an connects him to creation itself. Thus we see from the earliest gospel to the latest Jesus becomes less and less a human figure and more and mroe a cosmic figure. Whereas AMk casts his Jesus in a human struggle with the leaders of the Jewish Temple and the Romans, John frames his story as a cosmic battle between good and evil played out on the human stage.

In addition there is some hint in GJn of gnostic influence wherein the LOGOS is something akin to the Gnostic idea of the Sophia.

And yes, since the Council of Nicaea in 325 it has been heresy to consider the LOGOS and the human Jesus as different entities. That is almost precisely what the heresy of Arianism was about. Jesus was a simple human man imbued with the spirit of god for a time but not actually god incarnate. The Ebionites and Xian Gnostics thought similarly.
CX is offline  
Old 12-23-2002, 05:34 PM   #13
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,562
Post

Quote:
CX
Jesus was a simple human man imbued with the spirit of god for a time but not actually god incarnate.
That is exactly my point. When I read John I see the Word creating everything Also verses like

Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

confirm that Jesus was simply the first to have received the spirit of God (at his baptism) started to speak the Word of God. In GJohn Jesus says more than once that his words and works are not his but he who abides in him (ie the Spirit of God).

What I am getting at is that there may be a case for the Word being a different entity than Jesus based on the NT as we have it.

Quote:
CX
GJn takes jesus even further back an connects him to creation itself.
You are assuming here that the Word is Jesus. I would say that GJn connects the Word to creation.

Quote:
The Ebionites and Xian Gnostics thought similarly.
From what I can see so did the author of GJohn.
NOGO is offline  
Old 12-23-2002, 05:52 PM   #14
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: St Louis area
Posts: 3,458
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by NOGO:
<strong>Mortal

Can you recommend some readings.
</strong>
Sorry about the delay. Out of town for a couple of days. Here's one for starters: <a href="http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/supp05.htm" target="_blank">Tracing the Christian Lineage in Alexandria</a>
MortalWombat is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:51 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.