Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 04-15-2002, 07:06 PM

If you want to do a serious job, what evidence is there to show that Jesus actually existed???

Try and provide anything that you think would be acceptable as a historical defence of the existence of Jesus. Contemporary evidence of course is what is necessary. If you cannot then you have no evidence.

I can show you what Julius Caesar looked like and datable inscriptions and I can provide the bodies of numerous Egyptian leaders along with datable inscriptions. (I don't care whether Socrates lived or not: he may not have.) I can show you the remains from the battle of Lake Trasimene, so whether Hannibal existed or not, we have evidence of a battle atributed to him. We have sufficient evidence from Carthage which corroborates the events recorded by later Latin writers.

Saying that he probably existed means nothing. Everybody has an opinion, but that doesn't make for probable existence. So, anybody got the goods or are we going to get the same rehashes of non-contemporary evidence?

cydonia · 04-15-2002, 07:39 PM

The Jesus Mysteries was great for someone like me, a newcomer to questioning things. It doesn't pre-suppose alot of knowledge on the reader's part, it's like you figure out what happened along with them. I want to get the sophia book. I keep hearing about the jesus puzzle, and i may read it. I'm no scholar, and all the stuff about these church fathers and pagan historians kind of makes my head hurt. There's just so much history and no one agrees on the history to begin with! Everyone says the other guy's lying. And It's like alot of you guys here are seasoned scholars, and i'm just learning about Osiris! DAMMIT!!!!! (that's frustration)

Anyway, i just don't want to go to Hell. That can't be too much to ask.

Alexis Comnenus · 04-16-2002, 04:43 AM

Braces for impact,

Quote:

I found an interesting quote from Pope Leo the X. "What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, by Barbara Walker, p. 471. Rev. Taylor, in The Diegesis, reports a slightly different version of Leo X's admission: "It was well known how profitable this fable of Christ has been to us."

These quotes are fakes. They come from 16th century anti-Catholic polemic. Is there such a thing as impious fraud, do you think?

Regards

Alex

Kosh · 04-16-2002, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexis Comnenus:
Braces for impact,

These quotes are fakes. They come from 16th century anti-Catholic polemic. Is there such a thing as impious fraud, do you think?

Regards

Alex

Alex,

don't you have some unfinished business here?:
<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000200" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000200</a>

04-16-2002, 05:24 AM

The name Jesus was given to the reborn Joseph who was just a guy like you and me and everybody else. If anything, Joseph was different in that he was succesful in achieving heaven while on earth. Many have done this since (and before) but his may have been an prime example to write about and a golden opportunity to start a new religion while playing for keeps.

Have to remember here that myth is real but not real in the literal sense of the word.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

Wyrdsmyth · 04-16-2002, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:
Have to remember here that myth is real but not real in the literal sense of the word.

Amos,

You're incoherent, in the literal sense of the word.

Alexis Comnenus · 04-16-2002, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Alex, don't you have some unfinished business here?

Like what Kosh? I made my point and no one has gainsaid it. Why I should want to argue with Koy about biblical interpretation when I basically don't care, beats me. I'm interested in history not religion.

Regards

Alex

Dark Jedi · 04-16-2002, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:
The name Jesus was given to the reborn Joseph who was just a guy like you and me and everybody else. If anything, Joseph was different in that he was succesful in achieving heaven while on earth. Many have done this since (and before) but his may have been an prime example to write about and a golden opportunity to start a new religion while playing for keeps.

Have to remember here that myth is real but not real in the literal sense of the word.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

Amos, I was digging around, but could not find if anyone has asked you:
What is your native language? I ask because your English writing is excellent. You spell well, you punctuate properly, and form paragraphs well. The concepts just don't translate well. Putting them in context against your native tongue may help us grasp the meaning and intent a little better.

CX · 04-16-2002, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spin:
If you want to do a serious job, what evidence is there to show that Jesus actually existed???

Try and provide anything that you think would be acceptable as a historical defence of the existence of Jesus. Contemporary evidence of course is what is necessary. If you cannot then you have no evidence.

I can show you what Julius Caesar looked like and datable inscriptions and I can provide the bodies of numerous Egyptian leaders along with datable inscriptions. (I don't care whether Socrates lived or not: he may not have.) I can show you the remains from the battle of Lake Trasimene, so whether Hannibal existed or not, we have evidence of a battle atributed to him. We have sufficient evidence from Carthage which corroborates the events recorded by later Latin writers.

Saying that he probably existed means nothing. Everybody has an opinion, but that doesn't make for probable existence. So, anybody got the goods or are we going to get the same rehashes of non-contemporary evidence?

I myself am agnostic with regard to existence or non of an Historical Jesus. And frankly I don't think it is a very interesting question. I wonder though, given the proliferation of Xianity and it's hegemony in Western thought, which is more remarkable, that it's founder is entirely mythical or an historical figure who has been mythologized? I lean more towards an entirely mythical fuonder being the more remarkable given the current state of affairs, but that hardly constitutes an argument in favor of an Historical Jesus. Still, it seems like most religious systems have a human founder of one kind or another. Are you, or is anyone else, aware of a major religious system with a demonstrably mythical founder?

CX · 04-16-2002, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dark Jedi:


Amos, I was digging around, but could not find if anyone has asked you:
What is your native language? I ask because your English writing is excellent. You spell well, you punctuate properly, and form paragraphs well. The concepts just don't translate well. Putting them in context against your native tongue may help us grasp the meaning and intent a little better.

Amos' native language is Betelgeusian. It would be impossible to translate it into a human pronounceable language. [The Martians in the back will get the joke]

04-16-2002, 05:24 AM	#15
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	The name Jesus was given to the reborn Joseph who was just a guy like you and me and everybody else. If anything, Joseph was different in that he was succesful in achieving heaven while on earth. Many have done this since (and before) but his may have been an prime example to write about and a golden opportunity to start a new religion while playing for keeps. Have to remember here that myth is real but not real in the literal sense of the word. [ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

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04-15-2002, 07:06 PM	#11
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	If you want to do a serious job, what evidence is there to show that Jesus actually existed??? Try and provide anything that you think would be acceptable as a historical defence of the existence of Jesus. Contemporary evidence of course is what is necessary. If you cannot then you have no evidence. I can show you what Julius Caesar looked like and datable inscriptions and I can provide the bodies of numerous Egyptian leaders along with datable inscriptions. (I don't care whether Socrates lived or not: he may not have.) I can show you the remains from the battle of Lake Trasimene, so whether Hannibal existed or not, we have evidence of a battle atributed to him. We have sufficient evidence from Carthage which corroborates the events recorded by later Latin writers. Saying that he probably existed means nothing. Everybody has an opinion, but that doesn't make for probable existence. So, anybody got the goods or are we going to get the same rehashes of non-contemporary evidence?

04-15-2002, 07:39 PM	#12
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	The Jesus Mysteries was great for someone like me, a newcomer to questioning things. It doesn't pre-suppose alot of knowledge on the reader's part, it's like you figure out what happened along with them. I want to get the sophia book. I keep hearing about the jesus puzzle, and i may read it. I'm no scholar, and all the stuff about these church fathers and pagan historians kind of makes my head hurt. There's just so much history and no one agrees on the history to begin with! Everyone says the other guy's lying. And It's like alot of you guys here are seasoned scholars, and i'm just learning about Osiris! DAMMIT!!!!! (that's frustration) Anyway, i just don't want to go to Hell. That can't be too much to ask.

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