Freethought & Rationalism Archive

leonarde · 06-14-2003, 12:11 PM

Speaking of coins, one interesting coin is a Byzantine one from the 7th Century. It features a man's face remarkably similar to the face of the Image of the Shroud of Turin. See:
http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/

The successors to Filas in the field of looking for images in the Shroud are Mary and Alan Whanger. This they did/do using a polarized image overlay technique which they themselves developed. Eventually they made out numerous floral images in the Shroud, images of plants from the Jerusalem area. Their work in this area was verified and amplified by Israeli experts in
botany.
For a bit about the Whangers' activities see:
http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/whanger.htm

For the verification of the floral images by Israeli experts see:
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/daninx.pdf

Cheers!

mfaber · 06-14-2003, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde
? ????Yes, it was crap. But crap that:

1) you invented on page 5 of the 18 pager.

2) you maintained as a major reason the Shroud was a 'fake' (this from pages 5 to 12) that is until[....]

4) which I finally did on page 12 by reading back on the thread and discovering your invention

Wrong! Koy was impeaching your claims using a source that YOU posted:

From Page 3 of the late, great Shroud debate. Here is this post by you:

Quote:

Originally posted on March 18, 2002 07:50 PM by
leonarde

Another very detailed site (pro-authenticity) is
from Meacham, who is a professional archaeologist.
http://www.shroud.com/meacham2.htm

From THE SITE THAT YOU POSTED :

Quote:

The body is peppered with marks of a severe flogging estimated at between 60 and 120 lashes of a whip with two or three studs at the thong end. Each contusion is about 3.7 cm long, and these are found on both sides of the body from the shoulders to the calves, with only the arms spared. Superimposed on the marks of flogging on the right shoulder and left scapular region are two broad excoriated areas, generally considered to have resulted from friction or pressure from a flat surface, as from carrying the crossbar or writhing on the cross. There are also contusions on both knees and cuts on the left kneecap, as from repeated falls.

The wounds of the crucifixion itself are seen in the blood flows from the wrists and feet. One of the most interesting features of the Shroud is that the nail wounds are in the wrists, not in the palm as traditionally depicted in art. Experimenting with cadavers and amputated arms, Barbet (1953:102-20) demonstrated that nailing at the point indicated on the Shroud image, the so-called space of Destot between the bones of the wrist, allowed the body weight to be supported, where-as the palm would tear away from the nail under a fraction of the body weight. Sava (1957:440) holds that the wristbones and tendons would be severely damaged by nailing and that the Shroud figure was nailed through the wrist end of the forearm, but most medical opinion concurs in siting the nailing at the wrist. Barbet also observed that the median nerve was invariably injured by the nail, causing the thumb to retract into the palm. Neither thumb is visible on the Shroud, their position in the palm presumably being retained by rigor mortis.

The blood flow from the wrists trails down the forearms at two angles, roughly 55� and 65� from the axis of the arm, thus allowing the crucifixion position of the arms to be reconstructed. It is generally agreed that the separate flows from the left wrist and the interrupted streams along the length of the arm are due to slightly different positions assumed by the body on the cross. This seesaw motion is interpreted as necessary simply in order to breathe or as an attempt to relieve the pain in the wrists (the median nerve is also sensory and pain from injuries to it excruciating). A postmortem blood flow with separation of serum is seen around the left wrist and more copiously at the feet, presumably from the removal of the nails.

The pathology described thus far may well have characterized any number of crucifixion victims, since beating, scourging, carrying the crossbar, and nailing were common traits of a Roman execution. The lacerations about the upper bead and the wound in the side are unusual and thus crucial in the identification of the Shroud figure. The exact nature of these wounds, especially whether they were inflicted on a living body and whether they could have been faked, is highly significant. Around the upper scalp and extending to its vertex are at least 30 blood flows from spike punctures. These wounds exhibit the same realism as those of the hand and feet: the bleeding is highly characteristic of scalp wounds with the retraction of torn vessels, the blood meets obstructions as it flows and pools on the forehead and hair, and there appears to be swelling around the points of laceration (though Bucklin [personal communication, 1982] doubts that swelling can be discerned). Several clots have the distinctive characteristics of either venous or arterial blood, as seen in the density, uniformity, or modality of coagulation (Rodante 1982). One writer (Freeland, cited in Sox 1981) questions the highly visible nature of the wounds and clots, as if the Shroud man had been bald or the stains painted over the body image.

Between the fifth and sixth ribs on the right side is an oval puncture about 4.4 X 1.1 cm. Blood has flowed down from this wound and also onto the lower back, indicating a second outflow when the body was moved to a horizontal position. All authorities agree that this wound was inflicted after death, judging from the small quantity of blood issued, the separation of clot and serum, the lack of swelling, and the deeper color and more viscous consistency of the blood. Stains of a body fluid are intermingled with the blood, and numerous theories have been offered as to its origin: pericardial fluid (Judica, Barbet), fluid from the pleural sac (Moedder), or serous fluid from settled blood in the pleural cavity (Saval, Bucklin).

If you want to see the culprit responsible for the argument over the alleged wounds all you have to do is look in the mirror. Once you posted Meacham as a source, Koy had every right to use it against both you and Maecham.

I find it outrageous that you are trying to blame Koy from bring up the wounds after YOU opened the door by posting the source of the "34 wounds", YOURSELF (as he asked, do you ever read them?). He simply impeached your (or rather Meachim's) arguments, using YOUR VERY OWN SOURCE.

Quote:

3) others (including but not limited to Asha'man) called on me to 'explain' those 'arterial wounds' (if I remember correctly the number you invented was 34 NOT 38).

Minor quibble (34 vs 38)and in this tiny instance you are correct, it was 34 instead of 38. BUT again, he didn't "invent" the 'arterial wounds' (however many of them there were) as they were from YOUR source that you sited on page 3 of the thread. Face it....You just got "hoisted on your own petard" big time when Koy impeached you with your own source (how soon they forget!)

Edited to add the link for the thread in question:
The Shroud of Turin, so anyone can check out the facts for his/herself.

leonarde · 06-14-2003, 12:44 PM

Mfaber,
You joined (registered at) IIDF in June of 2002 (ie after the 18 page Shroud of Turin thread was long over with). Indeed, your interest, as expressed by participation in the topic on SUBSEQUENT threads, has, until quite recently, been nil: until June 5th when this thread
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=55137
began.

Therefore your "recollections" of the 18 pager are bound to be "hazy" (especially in comparison to me who actively participated in the 18 pager for the last 15 1/2 pages or so).

But then there is this anomaly: on page 8 of that 18 page Shroud of Turin thread I say this addressing Koy :

Quote:

[...]Your "milk jug theory" is very creative but you
seem to lack the background (I don't mean the dairy industry)to evaluate how a dying man/corpse bleeds/doesn't bleed. But perhaps I am blind to your wisdom.

Thanks again for your participation.
Cheers!

(emphasis added by leonarde)
Above posted March 26, 2002 04:07 AM. see:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...5&pagenumber=8

But then on the most recent Shroud of Turin thread before this one here's mfarber addressing me (leonarde):

Quote:

[...]You don't seem to have any background to evaluate your "compatible" evidence, while exhibiting the fact that you obviously understand all parts of the word "obfuscation".

Above posted June 6, 2003 05:40 PM (emphasis added by leonarde)

See: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...5&pagenumber=3

Notice how the "background" question is thrown back in my face: not by the one person you would expect to remember my words over a year later, but by mfaber!

Let the reader be the judge!

Cheers!

mfaber · 06-14-2003, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde
Speaking of coins, one interesting coin is a Byzantine one from the 7th Century. It features a man's face remarkably similar to the face of the Image of the Shroud of Turin. See:
http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/

The successors to Filas in the field of looking for images in the Shroud are Mary and Alan Whanger. This they did/do using a polarized image overlay technique which they themselves developed. Eventually they made out numerous floral images in the Shroud, images of plants from the Jerusalem area. Their work in this area was verified and amplified by Israeli experts in
botany.
For a bit about the Whangers' activities see:
http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/whanger.htm

For the verification of the floral images by Israeli experts see:
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/daninx.pdf

Piffle!!!!

FROM Recent Shroud Claims Based on Earlier, Scientifically Discredited Data

"POLLENS. It was reported that pollens on the shroud proved it came from Palestine, but the source for the pollens was a freelance criminologist, Max Frei, who once pronounced the forged "Hitler Diaries" genuine. Frei's tape-lifted samples from the Shroud were controversial from the outset since similar samples taken by the Shroud of Turin Research Project in 1978 had comparatively few pollens. As it turned out, after Frei's tapes were examined following his death in 1983, they also had very few pollens--except for a particular one that bore a suspicious cluster on the "lead" (or end), rather than on the portion that had been applied to the shroud. (See Skeptical Inquirer magazine, Summer 1994 pp. 379-385.)

FLORAL IMAGES. Accompanying the unscientific pollen evidence were claims that faint plant images have been "tentatively" identified on the shroud. These follow previous "discoveries" of "Roman coins" over the eyes and even Latin and Greek words, such as "Jesus" and "Nazareth," that some researchers see-Rorschach-like-in the shroud's mottled stains. The floral images were reported by a psychiatrist who has taken up image analysis and made other discredited claims about the shroud image."

Once again this looks like a case of the phenomenon of "seeing images" where none exists PAREIDOLIA

leonarde · 06-14-2003, 12:52 PM

Partial post:

Quote:

"POLLENS. It was reported that pollens on the shroud proved it came from Palestine, but the source for the pollens was a freelance criminologist, Max Frei,[...]

The "freelance criminologist" was the chief of Zurich's crime laboratory from 1948 until his retirement about 25 years later.

Cheers!

leonarde · 06-14-2003, 12:55 PM

Partial post:

Quote:

Once again this looks like a case of the phenomenon of "seeing images" where none exists [...]

And how do you explain that Jewish (ie non-Christian) Israeli experts in botany are seeing the same things as Mary and Allan Whanger?

Cheers!

mfaber · 06-14-2003, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde
Mfaber,
You joined (registered at) IIDF in June of 2002 (ie after the 18 page Shroud of Turin thread was long over with). Indeed, your interest, as expressed by participation in the topic on SUBSEQUENT threads, has, until quite recently, been nil: until June 5th when this thread
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=55137
began.

Therefore your "recollections" of the 18 pager are bound to be "hazy" (especially in comparison to me who actively participated in the 18 pager for the last 15 1/2 pages or so).

But then there is this anomaly: on page 8 of that 18 page Shroud of Turin thread I say this addressing Koy :

(emphasis added by leonarde)
Above posted March 26, 2002 04:07 AM. see:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...5&pagenumber=8

But then on the most recent Shroud of Turin thread before this one here's mfarber addressing me (leonarde):

Above posted June 6, 2003 05:40 PM (emphasis added by leonarde)

See: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...5&pagenumber=3

Notice how the "background" question is thrown back in my face: not by the one person you would expect to remember my words over a year later, but by mfaber!

Let the reader be the judge!

Are you kidding me??? (Do you really persist is thinking I'm Koy?)

I am not the only one to comment on your qualifications. If that is your grounds for assuming that I am really Koy in disguise, then there must a legion of Koy sockpuppets on this board.

Did you NOT read the post by Koy in this thread where he plainly declares that he doesn't have any sockpuppets (me or any other). Why don't you ask a mod or admin for confirmation or do you just find too much comfort in your delusions of persecution to ask for the truth from the people placed to know it?:banghead:

leonarde · 06-14-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Did you NOT read the post by Koy in this thread where he plainly declares that he doesn't have any sockpuppets (me or any other).

Yes, but in the 2nd Shroud of Turin thread we both participate in, he had a cheerleader whose name was Sockpuppet (subsequently changed to MadKally, and eventually banned). That sockpuppet named Sockpuppet opined "Koy rules!" and other insubstantial drivel so when Koy says that he never has used a sockpuppet, I can only roll my eyes.

Cheers!

Principia · 06-14-2003, 02:19 PM

Gotta love the leonarde show!

What happened, troll(e)? Is the Joynte running a bit dry?

hezekiah jones · 06-14-2003, 02:50 PM

leonarde, this is your worst delusion to date. Don't be such a troll.

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06-14-2003, 12:11 PM	#21
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	Speaking of coins, one interesting coin is a Byzantine one from the 7th Century. It features a man's face remarkably similar to the face of the Image of the Shroud of Turin. See: http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/ The successors to Filas in the field of looking for images in the Shroud are Mary and Alan Whanger. This they did/do using a polarized image overlay technique which they themselves developed. Eventually they made out numerous floral images in the Shroud, images of plants from the Jerusalem area. Their work in this area was verified and amplified by Israeli experts in botany. For a bit about the Whangers' activities see: http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/whanger.htm For the verification of the floral images by Israeli experts see: http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/daninx.pdf Cheers!

06-14-2003, 02:19 PM	#29
Principia Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: anywhere Posts: 1,976	Gotta love the leonarde show! What happened, troll(e)? Is the Joynte running a bit dry?

06-14-2003, 02:50 PM	#30
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	leonarde, this is your worst delusion to date. Don't be such a troll.

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