Paperstreet

If you had 20 kids, and 16 of them didnt acknowledge you, because they never saw you, only read a book you wrote, and heard their mother talking about you, would you torture all of the bad ones by throwing them in a giant microwave over and over again when you finally met them, or would you try and spend a little more time with them?

Hell is not merciful. Heaven would kind of have its down sides to, I would HATE knowing my friends and family are getting tortured, while I'm sippin martini's on a cloud...

Magus55

No, its a paradox, that you are placing God into.



You are putting God into categories of logic. You are saying He can't be omnipotent since He can't defy logic or His own divine nature. Thats categorizing.


55 has no real meaning. Plain Magus was taken, and iv'e tacked 55 on my name in other games and chats so i just stick with it.

Demigawd

Again, you're the one who is defining the supposed creator of the universe, not me. I'm criticising your definitions. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen, as the saying goes. Or perhaps, to keep it topical, it should be "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of hell."

As the creator of reality, God doesn't "defy" or reinforce logic. He supposedly defines logic. According to the concept of omnipotence, things are as he jolly well thinks they should be. Any other interpretation means there are circumstances that are outside the influence of this creator of all things.

Ah, ok. I was wondering if it had a numerical meaning like 66 in the film Buffalo '66.

Nowhere357

Magus55, I will try to give you a serious answer.

Thought experiment:
I love my wife. Sometimes she is disrespectful to me. So I beat her. I don't WANT to beat her, she CHOOSES to be beaten; I beat her out of LOVE.

Clearly, in this experiment, the word LOVE is not used correctly. In exactly the same way, if a good god punishes people for eternity, the word "good" is not used correctly.

SO a god may punish people for eternity, but a GOOD god would not do so.

I am a human, with a human brain. I am not very smart. But I do know that torturing people is wrong.

Unfortunately, this doesn't address the issue. I have no problem with god punishing sinners.

First, this denies his omnipotence, which seems odd. Second, it sound like mental illness. I'm not joking. If I beat my wife, and cannot stop myself, I would be seen as mentally ill.

Yes, there is. He could decide to stop torturing people for eternity.

Magus55

Your analogy is flawed. Your wife disrespecting you isn't an eternal crime against a perfectly Holy being that is deserving of death, and you aren't required by your human nature to beat Her. God is required by His nature to punish sinners.
SO a god may punish people for eternity, but a GOOD god would not do so.

Quote:

I am a human, with a human brain. I am not very smart. But I do know that torturing people is wrong.

You seem to think God is sitting in Hell tying barbed wired around your throat while tightening the rack. Hell is the eternal separation from God. Its is the embodiment of all evil in the universe. Evil and Sin is what torments you, not God. You chose to live a life of Sin instead of a life modeled after God, therefore you choose to live in Sin - which is what Hell is. God is the epitome of good. Without Him, there is no good to counter balance the evil that is in Hell, hence why its so bad. You are choosing to live without God, which is the same as if you directly chose to go to Hell, because thats what Hell is. A place completely separate from God.

We can also only speculate what Hell is like. There are some places in the Bible that imply Hell will have levels based on your actions on Earth. That may be what the Great White Throne Judgement does, is determine what part of Hell unbelievers are on. It would fit in with the rest of his design because the universe is tiered. Believers get rewards in Heaven and a status based on their earthly deeds. Hell could be the same way, where someone like Hitler or Saddam are in the lowest depths of Hell, whereas someone who just rejected God, but led a good life is on the upper levels and isn't tormented as much. We don't know how it works. To someone that rejects God and wants nothing to do with Him, Heaven would be Hell. Hell may not be as bad as it sounds if you truly don't want to be with God. It will just be a place of darkness with no good or hope in existance, devoid of any sign of God.

Quote:

First, this denies his omnipotence, which seems odd. Second, it sound like mental illness. I'm not joking. If I beat my wife, and cannot stop myself, I would be seen as mentally ill.

As i tried to explain to Demigawd, not being able to defy your own eternal nature has nothing to do with omnipotence. God can't not be righteous, its eternally, universally, divinely impossible by his own Godly nature. For him to make himself unrighteous, would make Him not God, which is illogical and contradictory.

Webster's defines omnipotent as having virtually unlimited authority, influence, or power. synonimous with Almighty. Omnipotence doesn't have to mean can do absolutely anything imaginable, even that which defies logic. Thats not the definition of omnipotence.

Quote:

Yes, there is. He could decide to stop torturing people for eternity.

He doesn't torture you, your own evil and sin does ( see above).

Demigawd

For someone who has blatantly admitted that we mere mortals can only speculate as to the nature of the eternal, you sure are making alot of concrete observations about the nature of the supposed eternal.

You can't have it both ways, Magus.

Paperstreet

Its called having a conscience, not denial of God. Don't try to relate conscience to God. God is supposed to be a guy in the heavens. Conscience is what makes you feel bad about doing bad things.

Also, do you actually think that all athiests are living horrible lives that are terrible and awful and dank and dreary and sad and lonely and miserable? I'm pretty happy about my life actually, and religion has nothing to do with how you feel about your life.

Also, by your logic, this life is pretty pointless anyway in the long run, and since hell isnt a physical place, I'll see you in heaven buddy.

Nowhere357

All analogies are flawed. My point still stands, unrefuted.

Do you propose that I don't know this? You are evading the point.

I've already said that I have no problem with god punishing sinners. Again, you've evaded the point.

This is a lie. I choose good and right over evil and wrong.

You are using these words incorrectly, so any point here is lost in semantics.

Again, I choose goodness, not evil. Please stop accusing otherwise, unless you have evidence.

Correct. Just as all biblical concepts can only be speculated on.

I can give you some counter speculations, but you wouldn't like them very much.

Let's call this point number two. Are you saying that god cannot control hell?

Then I'm safe, because I fight for good and against evil.

And I did this without worshiping jesus!

Nowhere357

What a great point!

Paperstreet

Ty, I can guess the excuse...

God will erase all knowledge of hell if your in heaven!

1. I don't recall seeing that in any of the bible...

2. lying??? Or no?

Anyways, why would I not want to remember my family and friends who I loved in my earth life? If they arent in heaven where would they be? A truly merciful and loving God WOULD NOT LIE!!!!!!