Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sandlewood · 10-09-2002, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
What I find amazing is this: you remain concerned about God's punishment.Why do you press the issue?

The primary reason that atheists don�t believe that a god exists is because there is no evidence of one. However, when you are attempting to decide the truth of a claim, you also try to see if it makes sense. Something makes sense if it has fewer internal contradictions and if it is consistent with all the other truths we know.
People are looking at the claims of Christianity and determining that they are contradictory and don�t make sense. Therefore, the claims are more likely to be false. We don�t get the cart before the horse. You have to see whether it makes sense before deciding it�s the truth.

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
So far, my experience with atheists and agnostics is that they have not thoroughly justified their beliefs.

Atheism isn�t a belief; it�s a lack of a belief. So far, my experience with theists is that they have not justified their beliefs at all. So I see no reason why I should believe what they want me to believe.

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
There is no contradiction in what I said. Although, we see again that you are not addressing the core of the issue, but instead spend your time looking for contradictions.

People are not looking specifically for contradictions. They are just searching thoroughly and they are finding contradictions. It only follows that your god doesn�t really exist. But you and other theists seem to be saying �we know it doesn�t make sense. So what?�

wdog · 10-09-2002, 03:57 PM

vander,

we are naturally posing hypotheticals about the god you claim exists. how else may we investigate the validity of the claim?

Devilnaut · 10-09-2002, 04:38 PM

Thanks for the reply Amos, and I find that to be a satisfying and acceptable answer. If you don't mind the question, how were these beliefs of yours passed down? Oral tradition?

And, do you think that previous myths and legends carry similar messages for a similar purpose? It is evident than many pantheistic religions do, but what about Greek mythology, or the beliefs of ancient Sumer and the Babylonians?

Sorry for the inquisition

Oh and apologies for the tangent discussion... i'm sure Vander will be back to set the thread straight again

heheheh

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]

10-09-2002, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Devilnaut:
Thanks for the reply Amos, and I find that to be a satisfying and acceptable answer. If you don't mind the question, how were these beliefs of yours passed down? Oral tradition? [/QUOTE}

Thanks Devilnaut and my answers are much closer to the truth then most people here realize. Along this train of thought I find far too much symmetry in both the bible and literature, and also between this same literatue and the bible for this not to be true. I can actually take you much further and do explications of both Divine Comedies and failed nor-so-divine comedies called Senecan tragedies. Titus Andronicus is such a tragedy in detail, while Macbeth is my favorite.

No it is not orally passed down except that I remember some old proverbial expression that now make a lot of sense. My Dad was good for these, I'll admid (wise man he was but never told me so).

I like the term "involutional melancholia," for example, which is not contained in modern dictionaries. Then I came across Duhrur's woodcut "Melancholia" and through these kind of things I unconsciusly seek for answers and try to synthesize these again into a lager frame of mind, and so on. I used to like lyrical poetry alot. They just absorbed my mind while I got lost in lala land (don't tell nurse Kally, please).
[QOUTE]

And, do you think that previous myths and legends carry similar messages for a similar purpose? It is evident than many pantheistic religions do, but what about Greek mythology, or the beliefs of ancient Sumer and the Babylonians?

I really don't know and better not make a comment here. I suspect they do.

Jobar · 10-09-2002, 07:55 PM

Amos:
a lager frame of mind

Yeah, I been there!

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.

)

Jack the Bodiless · 10-10-2002, 12:50 AM

Quote:

What I find amazing is this: you remain concerned about God's punishment.Why do you press the issue? If you have earnestly sought to find the truth, and you have found it, then why aren't you persuading others of this truth you found? Instead, you are posing these hypothetical questions.

I find it amazing that you are unfamiliar with the use of hypotheticals in testing beliefs for validity. Have you never sought to test your own beliefs? Apparently not...

Quote:

The answer to the first question will only come from you. I don't know if you realize this, but your are attempting to put me in a position that I cannot possibly fill. You see, Jamie, there are only two persons that know the answer: you, and God. You know that if God exists, then he knows how hard you have searched and if you prefer the comfort of your own worldview to his. This is something only you can answer. I cannot tell you if you have done enough.

This is not about "comfort": this is about determining which worldview is factually correct. Again, you seem to be unfamiliar with this concept. You are unable to accept that atheists don't believe in God. We are not seeking the most "comfortable" worldview.

Did you check out my "Argument from Incomprehension"? I'm not trying to be insulting here, but can you see why your responses are indicative of a mental dysfunction rather than the result of a revelation or a diligent search for truth? Have you given serious consideration to this possibility?

Quote:

It's unlikely that someone will earnestly seek the truth and deny the existence of the Creator. So far, my experience with atheists and agnostics is that they have not thoroughly justified their beliefs. In fact, we have just seen in this very thread that one particular atheist has not searched as well as he previously claimed.

...Which one?

You have no data on Mageth's search, other than the fact that he was a Christian for 45 years and isn't one now. The beliefs of his parents made him Christian initially, but are otherwise irrelevant: HIS search, over decades of adult life, was fruitless.

So on what basis have you concluded that "we have just seen in this very thread that one particular atheist has not searched as well as he previously claimed"?

As you seem confused on this point, I will answer for you. You have determined that Mageth's search was defective because he came to the "wrong" conclusion, and for no other reason whatsoever. But you have sought to deceive yourself, to invent an excuse. Yet again, you have failed to confront the stark truth: that millions of people have honestly examined the "overwhelming" evidence and honestly concluded that God does not exist.

And your own ongoing failure to present the "overwhelming" evidence is due to the simple fact that it does not exist. However, you have "taken on faith" that it MUST exist. Again, you do not wish to face reality.

Why is that, Vander? I am genuinely curious.

Jamie_L · 10-10-2002, 05:18 AM

Vanderzyden,

I thought I would add some further clarification to the types of questions I've been asking in this thread.

As I said previously, I have been trying to point out what I see as inconsistency, or things that don't make sense, with Christian theology. However, when having these arguements, a common result is to start arguing against a general theology only to find that the specific person on the other side of the arguement has a somewhat different theology. So, to avoid arguing against a strawman, the appropriate thing to do is to ask questions of the other person to find what they actually believe before trying to argue about it. That is what I have been trying to establish.

Thus, I have been asking you why, according to your theology (if true), and atheist would be punished (whether by being sent to hell, separation from God, etc.). It would not have been appropriate for me to argue about what you belive before knowing exactly what you believe.

However, I've yet to get a clear answer to these questions, so I have been continuing to ask them rather than proceeding to the next step of the discussion. As best I can tell, your current position seems to be that punishment is justified and/or inevitible because atheists are not honest in their disbelief in God, but rather are choosing to not believe in God.

This might lead to a completely different thread, as it is a point of contention whose answer lies at the heart of the OP. So, maybe this thread has gone as far as it can.

But it has been entertaining.

Jamie

Mageth · 10-10-2002, 07:55 AM

Great post, Jack. You hit the nail on the head.

I would add that the conclusion I've reached in my search is not one that I wanted to reach. My entire family (excepting my younger sister, and I have a large family) are believers; my life would be much easier if I shared their beliefs. I didn't choose to disbelieve; I just can no longer believe.

And Christians have the gall to say I "choose" to be separated from god!

It hurts knowing that most members of my own family believe that I, as an atheist, am condemned to eternal suffering/separation/annihilation. (My family leans towards "suffering").

I love my family, respect their beliefs, and don't want to cause my parents grief in their waning years, and thus am living more or less as a "closet" atheist in my family (it's impossible (and wrong) to hide it from my wife, so I've shared with her). As an atheist, I don't desire or require any harm or suffering for them. Sadly, as christians, their religion does.

This condemnation of a family member for what he doesn't believe, based on a book that's purportedly about "love", is the ultimate cruelty of Christianity.

wdog · 10-10-2002, 11:07 AM

Mageth,

I am in a similar situation. My wife knows my views ( she is not very religious herself) but I have to bite my tongue around just about everyone else. I have often complained about the asymmetry of tolerance, I can stand their presence usually, but they will fly off the deep end when they are confronted with me. I also do not want to 'rock my parents' boat' as they are old. I do draw the line at attending church, saying grace, or anything like that.

hinduwoman · 10-10-2002, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:


This logic taken to the extreme would suggest that rapists and murderers should not be punished because God made them that way.

So atheists, rapists, murderers all belong to the same category. Funny how the innate depravity of atheists always turn up, in absence of logical argument.

Rapists and murderers are punished on earth by other human beings. But according to Christianity if they accept Christ as their saviour they are
not punished by God but instead dwell in heaven.

Reminds me of a story I read of one English social worker in 1900's complaining that when Hindus become Christian they take to drinking, theiving and lying more easily because they think that instead of suffering from their karma they would get a priest to absolve them.

Of course she was opposed to the christian church and so might have made it up, but interesting point all the same, don't you think?

10-09-2002, 04:38 PM	#463
Devilnaut Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 374	Thanks for the reply Amos, and I find that to be a satisfying and acceptable answer. If you don't mind the question, how were these beliefs of yours passed down? Oral tradition? And, do you think that previous myths and legends carry similar messages for a similar purpose? It is evident than many pantheistic religions do, but what about Greek mythology, or the beliefs of ancient Sumer and the Babylonians? Sorry for the inquisition Oh and apologies for the tangent discussion... i'm sure Vander will be back to set the thread straight again heheheh [ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]</p>

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10-09-2002, 03:57 PM	#462
wdog Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ohio, USA Posts: 1,547	vander, we are naturally posing hypotheticals about the god you claim exists. how else may we investigate the validity of the claim?

10-09-2002, 07:55 PM	#465
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Amos: a lager frame of mind Yeah, I been there! (Sorry. Couldn't resist. )

10-10-2002, 05:18 AM	#467
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Vanderzyden, I thought I would add some further clarification to the types of questions I've been asking in this thread. As I said previously, I have been trying to point out what I see as inconsistency, or things that don't make sense, with Christian theology. However, when having these arguements, a common result is to start arguing against a general theology only to find that the specific person on the other side of the arguement has a somewhat different theology. So, to avoid arguing against a strawman, the appropriate thing to do is to ask questions of the other person to find what they actually believe before trying to argue about it. That is what I have been trying to establish. Thus, I have been asking you why, according to your theology (if true), and atheist would be punished (whether by being sent to hell, separation from God, etc.). It would not have been appropriate for me to argue about what you belive before knowing exactly what you believe. However, I've yet to get a clear answer to these questions, so I have been continuing to ask them rather than proceeding to the next step of the discussion. As best I can tell, your current position seems to be that punishment is justified and/or inevitible because atheists are not honest in their disbelief in God, but rather are choosing to not believe in God. This might lead to a completely different thread, as it is a point of contention whose answer lies at the heart of the OP. So, maybe this thread has gone as far as it can. But it has been entertaining. Jamie

10-10-2002, 07:55 AM	#468
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Great post, Jack. You hit the nail on the head. I would add that the conclusion I've reached in my search is not one that I wanted to reach. My entire family (excepting my younger sister, and I have a large family) are believers; my life would be much easier if I shared their beliefs. I didn't choose to disbelieve; I just can no longer believe. And Christians have the gall to say I "choose" to be separated from god! It hurts knowing that most members of my own family believe that I, as an atheist, am condemned to eternal suffering/separation/annihilation. (My family leans towards "suffering"). I love my family, respect their beliefs, and don't want to cause my parents grief in their waning years, and thus am living more or less as a "closet" atheist in my family (it's impossible (and wrong) to hide it from my wife, so I've shared with her). As an atheist, I don't desire or require any harm or suffering for them. Sadly, as christians, their religion does. This condemnation of a family member for what he doesn't believe, based on a book that's purportedly about "love", is the ultimate cruelty of Christianity.

10-10-2002, 11:07 AM	#469
wdog Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ohio, USA Posts: 1,547	Mageth, I am in a similar situation. My wife knows my views ( she is not very religious herself) but I have to bite my tongue around just about everyone else. I have often complained about the asymmetry of tolerance, I can stand their presence usually, but they will fly off the deep end when they are confronted with me. I also do not want to 'rock my parents' boat' as they are old. I do draw the line at attending church, saying grace, or anything like that.

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