Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GodfreyLife · 05-06-2003, 04:02 PM

The thing that the proponents of the free will argument conveniently decline to observe is that free will is not the cause of our choices. It is merely the environment in which our choices are made.

Our choices, if taken in an environment of free will, are caused by our character, and this is where the Christian idea of theistic blamelessness falls apart, because Christianity asserts the historicity of the Jesus character.

The Jesus character is fatal for the free will argument for the simple reason that, being human, he had free will, while, being Jesus, he enjoyed perfect character. In this way, he always had the freedom to make an evil choice, but being of flawless character, chose to decline evil options with unerring consistency.

The problem arises, then, because it becomes obvious that the reason that I am evil is not because I have the gift of free will, but because I have the gift of free will and I was not made like Jesus.

And who do they say took that decision?

Bad, God, bad!

diana · 05-06-2003, 04:10 PM

Hi, long winded fool!

Quote:

Originally posted by long winded fool
[B]An interesting question for those who see no problem with free-will coexisting with omniscience is: "If God told you that you were going to go to Burger King tomorrow at two in the afternoon, could you possibly be free to choose not to go to Burger King tomorrow at two in the afternoon?" Assuming God was telling the truth, either free will must be taken away along with human responsibility for going to Burger King at two, (since there was absolutely no way of choosing not to go) or a supposedly omniscient deity must be capable of making a mistake, thus negating its omniscience. No matter how you look at it, true free will always contradicts true determinism. And the Bible clearly states that humans both have complete free will and freedom of choice and that their fates have always been at the same time completely predestined since the beginning of time.

I agree completely. And very concisely put.

Quote:

The only reasonable apology I have heard is that, since the experience of every human being points solely to having freedom of choice, we ought to logically take responsibility for our own actions, even if they are ultimately predetermined. In other words, believing in predestination doesn't necessarily absolve one from taking responsibility for his or her actions. From God's point of view there can be no free will. Nothing can exist outside of his responsibility. From our point of view there is only free will.

I don't see how the question of responsibility changes the basic conflict you so aptly described above. Not making a choice is still a choice (to let things happen as they will). I can take responsibility or not for going to Burger King, but the fact remains: God already knows what will happen. Given the traditional characteristics of God, I can't choose other than what he already knows I will do. If God knows I'll go to BK at 2pm tomorrow, I can't not go.

At best, this leaves me only with the illusion of free will. Were it actual free will, I'd be able to not go.

Quote:

God cannot possibly be responsible for our choices by our understanding, since we cannot comprehend omniscience and free will coexisting. While it is still a paradox, it doesn't present a problem in regards to how one should behave. The only problem it raises is in the understanding of the nature of God, which no one can fully understand anyway, according to the Bible.

But of course. "God is beyond human understanding" is a nifty theological escape hatch, isn't it?

d

long winded fool · 05-06-2003, 05:02 PM

Very true. The "defense" presented does nothing to solve the logical problem of free will and determinism in Christianity, it merely allows for one to behave rationally while believing a paradox. (Not that believing a paradox is rational.

) In other words, it is a defense against the argument that "If God is omniscient, then I am not responsible for my actions and everything is God's fault." Because free will appears to exist, we must take responsibility for our actions and everything which results from our choices must be considered our fault, even in the event of an omniscient being which would prove otherwise. In the event of an omniscient being, I'd agree that this would be merely the illusion of free will, but the illusion must be considered real to any non-omniscient beings. Free will and omniscience still cannot rationally coexist, however we must all behave as though there is complete free will, even if we also believe in the possibility of complete omniscience. The belief itself may be contradictory, but behaviors resulting from this belief need not logically be any different than the behaviors of those who believe otherwise.

xeren · 05-06-2003, 06:15 PM

hi long winded fool, i believe your question was:

Quote:

If God told you that you were going to go to Burger King tomorrow at two in the afternoon, could you possibly be free to choose not to go to Burger King tomorrow at two in the afternoon?

I would answer, no, of course, you wouldn't be free, because if God is indeed omniscient, then know matter whether you like it or not, you will end up at BK somehow tomorrow.

But, as far as i know, i don't think Christians believe that God tells them the future very often (keep in mind I'm an atheist here, so i don't pretend to know exactly what a Christian thinks)

So, maybe God knows that you will god to Burger King tomorrow, but (and here's the important part) you sure don't know that He knows that, so you are still free to make you own choice about the issue. And of course, you choose Burger King because you were hungry and you like crappy food.

To which I'm sure you will say "Well, you couldn't have made any other choice!" Well, let's say (not knowing what God knows about the future) at the last minute, you realize that you don't like crappy food, and decide you want to go to Jack in the Box instead. Well, all along, God's knowledge would have been that at the last minute you would decide to go to J in the B instead.

Keep in mind I'm not saying that God's image of the future would change to represent a change in your mind, I'm saying that God's knowledge of the future simply fits what your final decisions in the choices you make are. As wiploc said, " If god knows what I'm going to do before I do it, that doesn't mean he's causing me to choose what I do. On the contrary, it's my choosing that causes what he knows"

long winded fool, my point is that your hypothetical situation is just that: a hypothetical situation. It being the case that God told you the future, no, you wouldn't have free will, but that is not the case we are talking about. We are talking about the real life case, where God never talks to anyone, because he doesn't exist. I mean, uh, because he is, uh, beyond our comprehension, yeah that's it.

Of course, there is still the problem that hasn't been adressed about God knowing the outcome of ways He chose to set up the world, and Him still choosing them, and then blaming people for the way they turned out. e.g. blaming adam and eve for disobeying Him.

Wiploc · 05-06-2003, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xeren
It being the case that God told you the future, no, you wouldn't have free will, but that is not the case we are talking about.

What if god told me I was going to Burger King, and then I decided to go to Wendy's instead. I still had free will. Was god wrong? If he wasn't wrong, then when I decide to go to Wendy's, that will change the past so that god told me I would go to Wendy's instead of Burger King.

Results:
1. I still have free will.
2. God still knows the future.

Problem:
Well, it's stupid. It involves a chronological inversion of causality. It would take a miracle.

Solution:
Yes, it's stupid, but it is no stupider than the assumption that god can know the future in the first place. That too is a miraculous chronological inversion.
crc

7thangel · 05-06-2003, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by T. E. Lords
This is the basic thought process that led me to my disbelief in God. I was hoping someone could either help me clarifiy these ideas further and thus make them stronger or contradict them. I have never had any christian offer me any contradiction to this except "god didn't want us to be robotts" and "you just have to have faith." I'm sure someone out there has a better argument than that.

The premise of a being with free will being created by a being with absolute power and absolute knowledge of the future is intrinsically contradictory.

Let�s assume that God, having the power to do anything and at the same time having full knowledge of how existence will play out in its entirety creates Adam and eve and places them in the garden. Now, knowing as we do that these are the first two humans on this planet we know that they have no access to books or any other personage (other than God himself) with which to gain knowledge of their world around them. In fact they are so ignorant that they do know even know the difference between good and evil yet. They are given one command (at least that we are aware of having been recorded in Judeo Christian lore) Do not eat from the tree of knowledge.

Now, god in his (supposed) infallible wisdom chooses which information he would impart to our friends (the blank slates) Adam and Eve having full knowledge of how they would use this information and the eventual decision they would make concerning his prime directive.

So, we now understand that God had full knowledge that Adam and Eve, with the information, warnings and commands given them would in fact make the wrong decision and doom mankind to the curse of original sin.

Do I need to continue this? I think so, given the general lack of intelligence demonstrated in this thread.

Had god wanted them to make the "right" decision he would have been well with in his infinite power to provide the aforementioned blank slates all the information, warning and fear to cause them to make that decision.

Therefore all of history acts like a domino effect starting from start (god). he placed the dominos (every detail of the earth every grain of knowledge that would be imparted to Adam and eve) and set everything to fall as he had wished. So all of us, as modern decedents of Adam and eve are just pieces in a very intricate domino chain completely devoid of free will and can not be responsible for our actions. God would have had full knowledge of every event that would transpire through out history, based on the way he designed it.

Secondly how could Adam and Eve even know that their actions were evil having not eaten of the tree of good and evil? Even one argues that God told them not to and therefore they would have had to know that it was wrong one could argue that they could not have known that defying God was wrong.

So, we have to make a decision having seen the contradictions inherent in this mythos.

1) Man has no free will. Therefore, is not accountable for his actions and if we are to still believe that god is a fair god then we would not be able to judge us for something we had no control over.

2) God does not have infinite knowledge of the future and did not know how Adam and Eve would react to their situation, and made a mistake in judging which information to impart to his people; therefore he is not all powerful, he is not all knowing and is not infallible. This is in direct contradiction with everything taught about �God� in the Bible.

3) There is no God at least not in the traditional Judeo Christian sense of the idea.

I choose 4, maybe God has a Purpose. Let me cut it short, it does not necessarily mean that God allowed/ created evil to exist, God is also evil. Thus the existence of evil does not in any case show God's weakness, or imperfection, nor negate him the quality of being all powerful.

Tell me, how do humans learn? And if humans do not learn without experiencing evil, where does he get's the wisdom of pursuing good? So evil has it's purpose.

By the way, I also do not believe in free will. Man is just given the ability to know, but the truth is that it cannot decide because it has no free will. That is why he can only be saved through grace and predestination. So no confusions, I think.

T. E. Lords · 05-06-2003, 10:05 PM

Any arguments along this Burger King topic are irrelevant. The point is that at point of creation God created everything. Put every flower and every rock in its place knowing how their placement would affect everything. The only why that an all knowing being could not effect free will is if this all knowing being did not create us.

For example let�s say I am a fortune teller and my powers are real and I know that you will go to BK tomorrow. There is not conflict because I didn't create the circumstances which will lead you to eat at BK. I am only privy to the foresight that you will indeed go there. But this argument makes no sense when discussing a being that created all circumstances that would eventually lead us to being born, how we were raised and that we will eat at burger king on D day at T time.

A major misconception is the belief that it is possible to know the future. Time isn't something we can move backwards and forwards through at will. We move through time space in direct correlation to the speed at which we travel. I.e. the closer we are to the speed of light the slower time passes. There is no way to know the future because it doesn't exist. And even if you got in a rocket ship and zoomed around and your perception of time passed slower than that on earth and you ended up in the "future" you wouldn't have anyway to return to your own time to use the information you gathered in the "future."

T. E. Lords · 05-06-2003, 10:09 PM

But if the saved are predestined there's no point in fighting it. the people that will believe will believe because god decided it that way. If thats the case then I refuse to play and he can send me to hell. I'm nobody's play thing.

long winded fool · 05-06-2003, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by T. E. Lords
A major misconception is the belief that it is possible to know the future. Time isn't something we can move backwards and forwards through at will. We move through time space in direct correlation to the speed at which we travel. I.e. the closer we are to the speed of light the slower time passes. There is no way to know the future because it doesn't exist. And even if you got in a rocket ship and zoomed around and your perception of time passed slower than that on earth and you ended up in the "future" you wouldn't have anyway to return to your own time to use the information you gathered in the "future."

If it is impossible to know the future, does this mean that an omniscient God cannot know the future? As long as we assume an omniscient being can know the future, then the Burger King example is valid. Unless, maybe God can know the future, but he cannot tell us what it will be. But if we are talking about the God of the Bible, then this is false because God tells many biblical characters the future and it always comes to pass. Most recorded Biblical prophecies have come to pass, if you believe the Bible. (Those that haven't are assumed to do so in the future.) Was there any free will to change these prophecies? Is there any to change the ones to come? If there is, was God wrong or lying?

T. E. Lords · 05-06-2003, 11:51 PM

If you subscribe to the belief that god exists out side of space time and can basically view all events at the same time then I supose it is possible for him to know the future. The bible doesn't say that though. That is something modern christians came up to defend their faith in the face of real logic.

05-06-2003, 05:02 PM	#23
long winded fool Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USA Posts: 2,113	Hi diana! Very true. The "defense" presented does nothing to solve the logical problem of free will and determinism in Christianity, it merely allows for one to behave rationally while believing a paradox. (Not that believing a paradox is rational. ) In other words, it is a defense against the argument that "If God is omniscient, then I am not responsible for my actions and everything is God's fault." Because free will appears to exist, we must take responsibility for our actions and everything which results from our choices must be considered our fault, even in the event of an omniscient being which would prove otherwise. In the event of an omniscient being, I'd agree that this would be merely the illusion of free will, but the illusion must be considered real to any non-omniscient beings. Free will and omniscience still cannot rationally coexist, however we must all behave as though there is complete free will, even if we also believe in the possibility of complete omniscience. The belief itself may be contradictory, but behaviors resulting from this belief need not logically be any different than the behaviors of those who believe otherwise.

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05-06-2003, 04:02 PM	#21
GodfreyLife Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Crawley, UK Posts: 16	The thing that the proponents of the free will argument conveniently decline to observe is that free will is not the cause of our choices. It is merely the environment in which our choices are made. Our choices, if taken in an environment of free will, are caused by our character, and this is where the Christian idea of theistic blamelessness falls apart, because Christianity asserts the historicity of the Jesus character. The Jesus character is fatal for the free will argument for the simple reason that, being human, he had free will, while, being Jesus, he enjoyed perfect character. In this way, he always had the freedom to make an evil choice, but being of flawless character, chose to decline evil options with unerring consistency. The problem arises, then, because it becomes obvious that the reason that I am evil is not because I have the gift of free will, but because I have the gift of free will and I was not made like Jesus. And who do they say took that decision? Bad, God, bad!

05-06-2003, 10:05 PM	#27
T. E. Lords Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: El Paso Tx Posts: 66	Any arguments along this Burger King topic are irrelevant. The point is that at point of creation God created everything. Put every flower and every rock in its place knowing how their placement would affect everything. The only why that an all knowing being could not effect free will is if this all knowing being did not create us. For example let�s say I am a fortune teller and my powers are real and I know that you will go to BK tomorrow. There is not conflict because I didn't create the circumstances which will lead you to eat at BK. I am only privy to the foresight that you will indeed go there. But this argument makes no sense when discussing a being that created all circumstances that would eventually lead us to being born, how we were raised and that we will eat at burger king on D day at T time. A major misconception is the belief that it is possible to know the future. Time isn't something we can move backwards and forwards through at will. We move through time space in direct correlation to the speed at which we travel. I.e. the closer we are to the speed of light the slower time passes. There is no way to know the future because it doesn't exist. And even if you got in a rocket ship and zoomed around and your perception of time passed slower than that on earth and you ended up in the "future" you wouldn't have anyway to return to your own time to use the information you gathered in the "future."

05-06-2003, 10:09 PM	#28
T. E. Lords Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: El Paso Tx Posts: 66	But if the saved are predestined there's no point in fighting it. the people that will believe will believe because god decided it that way. If thats the case then I refuse to play and he can send me to hell. I'm nobody's play thing.

05-06-2003, 11:51 PM	#30
T. E. Lords Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: El Paso Tx Posts: 66	If you subscribe to the belief that god exists out side of space time and can basically view all events at the same time then I supose it is possible for him to know the future. The bible doesn't say that though. That is something modern christians came up to defend their faith in the face of real logic.

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