Buffman

Psycho E.

I hope you don't mind if I add a belated thought to yours.

I suspect that many folks voted for Republican/ Conservative/Theists simply because they believed that those types would fight harder to defend America than would the Democrat/Liberal/ Atheists. They did so knowing full well that it might mean an end to church-state separation in this country. (Posts like GSH's make that voting decision seem far wiser than it really is. That's why I felt I had to comment.)

Most Americans are smart enough to realize that this is not a War on Terrorism. It is a War on Muslim Religious Fundamentalists. (Islamists) These fellow, monotheistic, religionists are even crazier than the Christian Reconstructionists ...though by very little. And perhaps that's why these "RSHA SchutzStaffel" Christian Reconstructionists are not condemned by the sane "Wehrmacht" Christian majority. (It might also help to explain why most of Europe, especially Germany, hasn't rushed to support and join the Bush propaganda campaign about "Disarming Hussein in order to save world civilization from a madman.")

Grad Student Humanist

Meaning what? That somehow the Puritans and fundies in this country are going to be able to sway the public opinion in Europe so as to suddenly turn everyone there into a Bible thumping Xtian killjoy? Or are you referring to an actual military invasion? Right.

Most Xtian conservatives I know could care less about Europe; most think it's a third world backwater where (gasp) drugs are legal and the people are socialists. I hope they keep believing that and stay the hell out.

Grad Student Humanist

If the US were the only progressive democratic country on earth then maybe I would care to stay. But it isn't. There are plenty of other countries which are just as free, more secular and enjoy a standard of living which would not be a step down. Why should I stay and fight just to make some kind of statement? Seems the statement the citizenry made a couple of weeks ago was strong enough for me. Let's see what happens in two years when Bush is reelected and has four more years to pack the courts with conservatives.

As to your comment about having lived in Europe, what does that mean? Are you disputing the fact that it is a more secular, less repressed place? If so, I'd like to hear your proof of that.

Splat

What statement was that? "We haven't thought about it much, but we kinda like the republican guy more than the democrat guy, except for governor."

It's true that 80% or more Americans are xians, but fundies are still a minority, and I think there is a majority who believe or can be convinced that separation is good for both religion and government. I also believe that they can be convinced that the current lurch towards fascism might not be the best response to terrorism we can come up with.

Whether they come to realize it before or after Bush et al. have done a lot of damage that will take decades to undo remains to be seen.

But I'm not throwing in the towel just when the fight is starting to get good. Nope. I'm digging in with Buffman.

Grad Student Humanist

Whether they made an informed decision before they pulled the lever is irrelevant. They chose the right wing reactionary approach and thus the country will now reap the consequences. There is absolutely nothing holding them back now. After the '94 elections the Democrats still controlled the Executive Branch at least. Now there are no safeguards.

Conservative judge after conservative judge is going to be approved by the Senate and even if the Supreme Court justices hang on for a couple more years, I have no doubt that Bush will be reelected and have four more years to appoint a couple of right wingers to that court as well. How do you think the courts are going to rule on C/S issues when it's Scalia, Thomas and a few more conservatives who will vote in lockstep with them? The GOP has done a marvelous job of convincing the American people that they're the "adults," they're the ones who can take care of the terrorist threat. The people have bought it hook, line and sinker; just look at how those bastards in GA were able to convince the majority of voters there that a man who was almost killed in Vietnam is unpatriotic because he's not on board the Bomb Iraq train.

Unlike '94, this last election wasn't the end of the conservatives' push, it's the beginning. Bush will be reelected, and the best the Democrats will be able to do is (maybe) win back the Senate, although it will be much, much harder to do.

Elbereth

I read in my school's newspaper today that the Pennsylvania Senate just approved a bill that will require all public and private school students to say the Pledge or sing the National Anthem each morning before class.

Can they do that? Wasn't there a Supreme Court decision that said they can't force people to say the Pledge?

Stephen Maturin

That report isn't entirely accurate. Here's the <a href="http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/BI/BT/2001/0/HB0592P4353.HTM" target="_blank">text of the bill</a>. It does in fact allow students to refrain from saying the Pledge and/or saluting the flag. However, if a student exercises that right, school officials are obligated to notify the student's parents. As I recall, the parental notification requirement is the provision that the ACLU opposes.

Splat

I can't wait for the note:

"Dear Parent,

This is to inform you that the ungrateful traitor and terr'ist that is your son/daughter (check one) has refused to participate in the Most Sacred Ritual of pledging allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, one nation under GOD. Please acknowledge your child's unspeakable and unforgivable transgression by signing and returning this note within 24 hours."

Looking forward to wiping my ass on that one and sending it back to school in a baggie. Better make a copy for my beloved state rep too.

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Splat ]</p>

Splat

I agree that the reins have been loosened, but I think even the republicans realize that they're sitting on top of a shaky middle that could easily dump them if they go too far. They've only got 2 years, which is plenty of time to do a lot of damage (both to the Constitution and to people's opinions of them), but not destroy.

It's going to be a long uphill fight. Surrender and leave if you want. We'll find some way to manage without you.

Grad Student Humanist

Well, even if they are dumped after two years, the judicial appointments are for life (there are still judges serving now who were appointed by Nixon) and their decisions will haunt this country for years to come. And as I said before, I have no hope that Bush will be defeated in '04.

I guess where I part ways with many on this board is in having any faith (if you will) in the people in this country to reject this religious bullshit. I don't. And it's not just C/S issues. It's any kind of progressive social issue. Let's not forget that in this past election not only were the liberals soundly defeated, but so were several liberal ballot measures which involved decriminalizing marijuana and protecting the civil rights of gays.