Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nowhere357 · 06-08-2003, 10:27 AM

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Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna
My argument DOES say:
admittedly irrational theism + failure to change irrational theism after admitting it = irrational person.
By definition.

Could you give an example of rational theism?

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I think "This person always tries, although sometimes failing, to use reason when faced with a decision."
You think "This person usually tries to use reason when faced with a decision, but sometimes might not." (or something of the sort, I can't claim to read your mind)

I agree with yours, though the other doesn't bother me much. People often make decisions for emotional reasons(!) then use logical reasons for after-the-fact justification. This does not make the person generally irrational.

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The way I understand the word, one cannot be rational if they have irrational beliefs and accept them.

I have to disagree with this, due to the claustrophobia example. Imagine the man becomes aware of his irrational fear of enclosed places - so tries to overcome that fear, but fails repeatedly. He then decides to accept his irrational fear - and get on with his life.

Is it fair to say the man is, of necessity, generally irrational? I say no.

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They might sometimes do irrational things, because emotions tend to be irrational and everyone is run by their emotions. But they will try to avoid irrational emotions when possible.

I agree.

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gut feeling- entirely irrational, and often wrong. A rational person would not want to make a decision based on a gut feeling.

Yes a gut feeling is entirely irrational, and often wrong. It is also an intuitive feeling and is sometimes right.

Many rational people include gut feelings in their decision-making. Ask any military leader, for example.

So this rebuttal fails, I think.

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mother's instinct-
irrational, a rational person would regret doing some instinctual unnecessary checkup. They would probably still do it, because instincts are strong, but they would not say "yeah that was irrational, but it was right to do anyway". They could claim rationality, though, if their reasoning was "I feel bad because I am not doing this checkup. My bad feeling will not go away until I do a checkup. The bad feeling would be worse than the time wasted doing the checkup. Therefore I will go do the checkup". That's perfectly rational.

I bet you're wrong here also. Poll mothers with the two responses:

"yeah that was irrational, but it was right to do anyway"

"I feel bad because I am not doing this checkup. My bad feeling will not go away until I do a checkup. The bad feeling would be worse than the time wasted doing the checkup. Therefore I will go do the checkup"

And ask which more closly describes their thinking. I'm not too invested in this particular example - I said it was weak - but still... wanna bet?

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A rational person recognizes the way brains function.

No, I don't think it's necessary to be aware of brain physics in order to rationally weigh our thoughts.

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you claim you know your kids are average, but believe they are special. I believe you are confusing yourself here. You know they are average, therefore you believe that they are average. However, you also know that to you, they are special. Not contradictory or irrational.

Good, that's the way I see it. You agree that these two statements taken together DO NOT indicate a generally irrational person:

"You know they are average" and
"you also know that to you, they are special"

The apparent contradiction between average and special is resolved by the differing viewpoints: one is general and objective, the other is personal and subjective.

The apparent contradiction we are discussing - belief in an irrational god - is resolved in the same way. And also in the same way, it does not imply a generally irrational person.

Nowhere357 · 06-08-2003, 11:47 AM

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Originally posted by Biff the unclean
You seem to be asking that religion be made into a special case.

The opposite is true! Thus my analogic examples!

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A person who had sex only once a month would not qualify as a virgin.
A person who only had a cigarette when she went out with friends would not qualify as a non-smoker.
And so a person who admits to being irrational, but only when it comes to religion, would not be rational

If you define it this way, then you are right. You're also implying that phobic people are generally irrational. So I think it's not a very good definition.

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That is a problem with the internet. Were we talking together I would push my glasses to the end of my noble nose, raise one eyebrow and stare at you until you felt uncomfortable. But here on the boards I'm reduced to being flip.

No, I have no problem here, I'm sure I deserve worse. I was just trying to show that the question was good.

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Since almost every Christian I meet is a "cherry picker" their beliefs reveal almost everything about them.

In my experience cherry pickers usually aren't up for debate - that's not their style - and are usually good, spiritually aware people, on a path with wisdom and heart. Such as it is.

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If my teen aged daughter's (she's actually in her 30's) irrational belief were about a six foot tall invisible rabbit who had super powers and lived on the other side of the sky in a magic world that you could only see if you were dead I could certainly dismiss them.

Hell yeah. To say the least!

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This trick of trying to equate your God with love cannot possible work on any but the very "slow."

I have not advocated a god, and I'm playing no tricks. And I haven't equated god with love - I've equated an irrational belief in god with other irrational beliefs which generally rational people might hold.

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I don't know why Christians keep bringing it up, it's rather demeaning of you.

I'm an atheist.

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You aren't talking about a human emotion--you can demonstrate a human emotion.

Actually we are talking about human emotion. People have been spiritually aware in all cultures and all times.

We are not debating the existence of god here. We are debating whether an irrational belief in god is sufficient to declare a person generally irrational.

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Can you produce a man?
Can you produce a man who suffers from claustrophobia?
Can you demonstrate the ill effects close confinement would have on this man?
Yes. Therefore there's nothing irrational being talked about.

Correct. It is not necessarily irrational to accept an irrational belief.

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No one raised it to omni-status, whatever that means. That would be a straw boy (somewhat smaller than a straw man)

Athough I think technically it wasn't a strawman, but still - :notworthy

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But to say that the admittedly irrational is rational only because you are talking about religion is nonsense.

I've said no such thing.

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That intent was stated when the believer declared his belief irrational. "I don't know this is true but I'm going to believe it's true anyway."

I disagree that the quote is descriptive of a liar, based on the dictionary definition.

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No they weren't because they were reporting to you the information that they possessed. The Religious irrational person is reporting to you information they do not posses.

That does not equate to "lying".

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That�s simply not true.

Well, a new theory based on newly observed evidence shouldn't automatically be accepted as fact. I don't claim to know what Galileo himself was actually thinking.

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That a person warns you that what they are telling you is a lie does not make them an honest person.

Correct. Neither does it make them a liar. The word is not appropriate here.

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How is a mother's concern irrational?

I didn't say "mother's concern". I was refering to the "mother's instinct" which is felt as a compulsion - and is entirely irrational in origin.

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Why do you keep misrepresenting what is being said?

If you feel I'm misrepresenting, I hope you don't claim it's intentional. The analogies are given in hopes of sharing my viewpoint.

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Why do you keep making it so nice and sweet?

Are nice arguments less reasonable?

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So I believe that you rape small innocent boys while performing your duties of the Blessed Sacrament. According to your "rational" this belief would be the same as a mother looking over her sleeping new born.

If you have a feeling that I am a such, then your acknoweldgement of that feeling would not of necessity make you a liar, nor would it of necessity make you a generally irrational person.

Rational BAC · 06-08-2003, 12:45 PM

This has turned into an excellent discussion and I do not want to interfere too much with it.

I do think that those who think, or thought, that a seriously left brained and very rational individual like myself---who made an excellent living in AC/refrigeration repair, and managed to put 2 daughters through college with my "rational" self---could hardly be called essentially "irrational" simply because I happen to hold irrational core beliefs about my Christianity.

I think that those who are even debating this for the "totally irrational" side, never had a case to start with. Or, if any case at all, it was a laughable one.

You lost this one. Admit it. Give it up as a lost cause.

AJ113 · 06-09-2003, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
This has turned into an excellent discussion and I do not want to interfere too much with it.

I do think that those who think, or thought, that a seriously left brained and very rational individual like myself.......

No-one cannot be "very" rational. You are either rational, or you are not rational.

........---who made an excellent living in AC/refrigeration repair, and managed to put 2 daughters through college with my "rational" self---could hardly be called essentially "irrational" simply because I happen to hold irrational core beliefs about my Christianity.

You seem to be confusing the word "rational" with "intelligent."
Let's go through this step by step, shall we?

Your religeous beliefs, by your own definition, are irrational.
People generally base their entire lives around the demands of their religeous beliefs. I assume this includes you. If it does not, then please clarify.
You are basing your entire life around the demands of an irrational belief.
Virtually everything you do or believe, although much of it may be rational, has at its root an irrational belief.
This state of affairs disqualifies you from claiming to be rational, in my opinion.

However, you believe that some of the things you did in your life had a deal of common sense attached to them, and this somehow allows you to ignore your irrational beliefs and thus declare yourself to be rational.

Only an irrational person would do this.

I think that those who are even debating this for the "totally irrational" side, never had a case to start with. Or, if any case at all, it was a laughable one.

You lost this one. Admit it. Give it up as a lost cause.

This is a strawman.

I have stated my case above, and many times before. Please answer it with something other than baseless waffle.

I have asked you before in this thread, and I will ask you once more: please show where anyone has described you as "totally irrational."

Nowhere357 · 06-09-2003, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113
However, you believe that some of the things you did in your life had a deal of common sense attached to them, and this somehow allows you to ignore your irrational beliefs and thus declare yourself to be rational.

Only an irrational person would do this.

Or a person with phobia. Or a mother. Or someone with strong spiritual feelings. Or someone infatuated with love. Etc. All of us, really.

So your definition of "rational" is, well, irrational.

By sticking with this irrational definition, you are displaying irrationality. Is it then fair to say that you are of necessity an irrational person?

I say no. You may be irrational only on this one subject, and yet still display general rationality.

AJ113 · 06-09-2003, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nowhere357
Or a person with phobia. Or a mother. Or someone with strong spiritual feelings. Or someone infatuated with love. Etc. All of us, really.

So your definition of "rational" is, well, irrational.

By sticking with this irrational definition, you are displaying irrationality. Is it then fair to say that you are of necessity an irrational person?

I say no. You may be irrational only on this one subject, and yet still display general rationality.

There's nothing like quoting out of context to get your point home, is there?

Unfortunately this out-of-context quote is whopping great straw-giant.

At the risk of boring the rest of the fraternity who can be bothered to read this somewhat tedious exchange:

I was specifically talking about an irrational religeous belief that RBAC's entire life revolves around.

None of your fallacious analogies resemble this fact.

See?

His whole life is founded upon a self-confessed irrational belief.

Now THAT's one irrational guy, in my book.

Sabine Grant · 06-09-2003, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113
There's nothing like quoting out of context to get your point home, is there?

Unfortunately this out-of-context quote is whopping great straw-giant.

At the risk of boring the rest of the fraternity who can be bothered to read this somewhat tedious exchange:

I was specifically talking about an irrational religeous belief that RBAC's entire life revolves around.

None of your fallacious analogies resemble this fact.

See?

His whole life is founded upon a self-confessed irrational belief.

Now THAT's one irrational guy, in my book.

Rational BAC mentionned a few details of his personal life which have nothing to do with any religious practice of any kind. His profession for example..... or are you assuming that all AC technicians' skills and succesful careers are " founded on a self confessed irrational belief"? or putting two daughters thru college maybe?
I agree a 100% with Nowhere's last post. There is no value or benefit or " rationale" to establish the level of overall rationality of any individual based on their choice of beliefs.
For that matter let me dig a bit deeper....since a christian upholds certain social and behavorial principles based on the example of Christ which are the result of their " self confessed irrational belief"' are you evaluating feeding a homeless man as irrational? or visiting prisonners in jail as irrational? or being concerned about how to pull someone from their personal misery irrational etc... since MANY other individuals who are not christians also practice similar social and behavioral principles, are there actions also irrational?
Are you implying that the social and behavior principles of an individual are irrational if they have a " self confessed irrational belief " no matter how positive their actions may be?

Sabine Grant · 06-09-2003, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113

Now THAT's one irrational guy, in my book. [/B]

In your book? YOUR book.... indeed. Will you conciede though that you might be wrong? could there be one remote possibility that you might be wrong in your evaluation of BAC's character?
Does your book also apply the same reasoning to Dr. King? He did not preach faith based on reason.....or did he?

wade-w · 06-09-2003, 04:04 PM

I've let this thread continue despite my misgivings; I think a thread devoted to analyzing another member is basically a bad idea. However, there has been some redeeming value in the discussion of rational vs irrational in general.

What I'd like to see is more of the latter. Let's drop the personal aspects of this, and concentrate on what it means to live a rational life. Otherwise, I think this thread will be closed soon.

Sabine Grant · 06-09-2003, 04:12 PM

Wade... where I would like to refocus is on the purpose of reason. Is a rational life to be evaluated rational because of the positive outcomes or is it to be evaluated soly on what an individual believes or does not believe? Should reason be productive to be evaluated as an attribute such as " rational" to any person or should the evaluation be made soly on what inspires a person to be productive?
Should it be soly an intellectualization of thoughts or should it produce positive outcomes?
Is that acceptable to you to pursue in this thread?

Thanks for adding water to the well as it is seems more productive than oil on a fire.

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06-08-2003, 12:45 PM	#133
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	This has turned into an excellent discussion and I do not want to interfere too much with it. I do think that those who think, or thought, that a seriously left brained and very rational individual like myself---who made an excellent living in AC/refrigeration repair, and managed to put 2 daughters through college with my "rational" self---could hardly be called essentially "irrational" simply because I happen to hold irrational core beliefs about my Christianity. I think that those who are even debating this for the "totally irrational" side, never had a case to start with. Or, if any case at all, it was a laughable one. You lost this one. Admit it. Give it up as a lost cause.

06-09-2003, 04:04 PM	#139
wade-w Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Silver City, New Mexico Posts: 1,872	I've let this thread continue despite my misgivings; I think a thread devoted to analyzing another member is basically a bad idea. However, there has been some redeeming value in the discussion of rational vs irrational in general. What I'd like to see is more of the latter. Let's drop the personal aspects of this, and concentrate on what it means to live a rational life. Otherwise, I think this thread will be closed soon.

06-09-2003, 04:12 PM	#140
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	Wade... where I would like to refocus is on the purpose of reason. Is a rational life to be evaluated rational because of the positive outcomes or is it to be evaluated soly on what an individual believes or does not believe? Should reason be productive to be evaluated as an attribute such as " rational" to any person or should the evaluation be made soly on what inspires a person to be productive? Should it be soly an intellectualization of thoughts or should it produce positive outcomes? Is that acceptable to you to pursue in this thread? Thanks for adding water to the well as it is seems more productive than oil on a fire.

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