Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Alludium Fozdex · 08-26-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Coldread - nope, the ones who prophesyed to me gave extremely specific information.

What was this specific information that nobody but you could possibly know?

ecco · 08-26-2007, 01:48 PM

.

David B and RAFH have pretty much summed up my thoughts already.

Quote:

Nuwanda:

Whether the universe is eternal or if it had a beginning - neither of which are logical according to science: all we know always existed, or all we know came from nothing (0+0=1).

My answer to these kinds of questions is always the same - I dunno – but it’s nonsensical to invent a god so that I could instead say goddidit. Do you really know how gravity works? If you don’t, why don’t you believe that god gently pushes down on your head to keep you on the ground? Why don’t you believe that when you throw a ball into the air god throws it back down to you? You’re OK with inserting goddidit into some of questions – why not all of them?

Quote:

Nuwanda:
…you're still utterly convinced that God is a myth due soley to a lack of understanding from science

I’m convinced that gods are myths due primarily to a lack of understanding of the workings of nature, especially on the part of primitive man. These myths have been and are perpetuated by organized religions. Organized religions know full well that knowledge is the greatest threat to organized religions. The outcry over the teaching of evolution is a case in point (one of many).

Nuwanda · 08-26-2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAFH

Huh? Uh, do you have a clue what you are talking about? I don't understand your question. Perhaps you can rephrase it in more comprehensible terms.

RAFH was unsure of what I meant by the universe being "non-local" which is a paradigm shift from classical physics.

I'll let you find the definition of the term, as it is readily available at the touch of your keypad, but basically it's a concept demonstrated by Bell's Theorem that entities at a quantum level, for instance photons, can interact or communicate with one another instantly or "in no-time" from any distance in space, which is not possible in the view of classical physics.

Basically, it's made it impossible for science to consider entities (on a quantum level, and therefore, theoretically, on a macro-level as well since all things "macro" are constructs of the quantum world) as independant entities that can be localized in a fixed spacetime.

So, my point was, why do you hold classical science/physics/biology, choose your method, as the judge and mediator of God's existence when that same brand of science is incapable of judging the quantum world in which all of existence is based on?

Or, in case that wasn't clear, if you can't answer the mysteries of natural existence with today's science why do you find it reasonable to pass judgement on God's existence with the same measuring stick?

The true skeptic, I think, would reserve judgment on both if he were consistent.

David B · 08-26-2007, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAFH

Huh? Uh, do you have a clue what you are talking about? I don't understand your question. Perhaps you can rephrase it in more comprehensible terms.

RAFH was unsure of what I meant by the universe being "non-local" which is a paradigm shift from classical physics.

I'll let you find the definition of the term, as it is readily available at the touch of your keypad, but basically it's a concept demonstrated by Bell's Theorem that entities at a quantum level, for instance photons, can interact or communicate with one another instantly or "in no-time" from any distance in space, which is not possible in the view of classical physics.

Basically, it's made it impossible for science to consider entities (on a quantum level, and therefore, theoretically, on a macro-level as well since all things "macro" are constructs of the quantum world) as independant entities that can be localized in a fixed spacetime.

So, my point was, why do you hold classical science/physics/biology, choose your method, as the judge and mediator of God's existence when that same brand of science is incapable of judging the quantum world in which all of existence is based on?

Or, in case that wasn't clear, if you can't answer the mysteries of natural existence with today's science why do you find it reasonable to pass judgement on God's existence with the same measuring stick?

The true skeptic, I think, would reserve judgment on both if he were consistent.

My bold

Do you, as a matter of fact, judge the existence of Zeus, Thor etc as something to reserve judgement on?

David B (refrains from further comment, at this point)

Rhaedas · 08-26-2007, 05:17 PM

Where does this leave those that have spent a good part of their lives searching, believing, and not getting the clear messages you seem to get? Why does God ignore their need to know he's real? Why does God work his miracles in vagueness or circumstantial situations?

I'll just live a good life, be nice to people, and try to make a difference in this world, the only one that it seems we have. If God needs me to believe in him, he knows what it'll take, and he knows where to find me.

And if he condemns me because I couldn't make myself believe in something that I don't see a reason to blindly believe in, well, I can't win that game, can I?

Nuwanda · 08-26-2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

Do you, as a matter of fact, judge the existence of Zeus, Thor etc as something to reserve judgement on?

David B (refrains from further comment, at this point)

Real quick:

Zeus, like all other Greek gods was based on nature. Once science revealed nature the gods that were tacked to them eventually lost adherents. Bible God (as He is affectionately known here) is not tacked to nature but is the Creator and Sustainer of it. Let science discover where the universe came from and what sustains it and Bible God will go away too.

I don't know much about Thor worship but I do know he supposedly lived in a giant's shoe or something to that effect? Doesn't sound like anyone really took Thor worship seriously. I do dig a god with a hammer though.

GenesisNemesis · 08-26-2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

I do dig a god with a hammer though.

I don't really do good with someone getting nailed on a Cross, though.

...By Thor's Hammer!

:Cheeky:

Headache · 08-26-2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

Do you, as a matter of fact, judge the existence of Zeus, Thor etc as something to reserve judgement on?

David B (refrains from further comment, at this point)

Real quick:

Zeus, like all other Greek gods was based on nature. Once science revealed nature the gods that were tacked to them eventually lost adherents. Bible God (as He is affectionately known here) is not tacked to nature but is the Creator and Sustainer of it. Let science discover where the universe came from and what sustains it and Bible God will go away too.

I don't know much about Thor worship but I do know he supposedly lived in a giant's shoe or something to that effect? Doesn't sound like anyone really took Thor worship seriously. I do dig a god with a hammer though.

The Nordic gods were real in the eyes of the vikings and no, Thor did not live in a shoe.

But, a more interesting question is if you believe in all the gods in the bible?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen on gods of the bible

Gods mentioned in the Bible:

Adrammelech ...II Kings 17:31 ... Sepharvite God.
Anammelech ... II Kings 17:31 ... Sepharvite God.
Ashima ... II Kings 17:30 ... Samaritan Moon Goddess.
Ashtoreth ... I Kings 11:05 ... Canaanite Goddess.
Baal ... I Kings 18:19 ... Canaanite God ("Lord") of fertility, vegitation, and storms.

Baal-berith ... Judges 8:33 ... A regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-peor ... Numbers 25:03 ... Moabite regional variation/aspect of Baal.

Baal-zebub ... Luke 11:19 ... Philistine/Ekronian regional variation/aspect of Baal.

Baalim ... I Kings 18:18 ... Canaanite Gods ("Lords"), a collective of the different aspects of Baal.

Bel ... Isiah 46:01 ... Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian God ("Lord").
Chemosh ... I Kings 11:07 ... Moabite war God.
Dagon ... I Samuel 05:02 ... Philistine/Ekronian/Babylonian God of agriculture.
Diana of the ... Acts 19:35 ... Ephesian moon and nature Goddess, ("Divine/Brilliant").

Jehovah ... Exodus 6:03 ... Hebrew God
Jupiter ... Acts 14:12 ... Roman God (possibly derived from 'Zeus-pater', Father Zeus).

Lucifer ... Isiah 14:12 ... ("Light-Bearer")
Mercurius ... Acts 14:12 ... Otherwise known as the Roman God Mercury, God of communication and travel, and messenger of the Gods...which is probably why Paul was called this at Lystra.

Milcom ... I Kings 11:05 ... Ammonite God
Molech ... I Kings 11:07 ... Ammonite God, also called Moloch, most probably Baal-Hammon of Carthage.

Nebo ... Isiah 46:01 ... Assyrian/Babylonian/Chaldean God of wisdom and writing, also called Nergal

Nabu. ... II Kings 17:30 ... Cuth/Assyrian/Babylonian war and underworld God, also called Meshlamthea.

Nibhaz ... II Kings 17:31 ... Avites God
Nisroch ... II Kings 19:37 ... Assyrian God
Rimmon ... II Kings 05:18 ... Babylonian/Syrian storm God involved (as Ramman) with the Deluge, according to Hebrew texts; also known as Ramman/Rammon.

Succoth-benoth ... II Kings 17:30 ... Babylonian fertility Goddess ("She Who Produces Seed"), also known as Zarpanitu/Zerpanitum.

Tammuz ... Ezekial 8:14 ... Assyrian/Babylonian God
Tartak ... II Kings 17:31 ... Avites God

Since they are in the bible, they must be real, yes?

Nuwanda · 08-27-2007, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headache

The Nordic gods were real in the eyes of the vikings and no, Thor did not live in a shoe.

It was a glove, my bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headache

But, a more interesting question is if you believe in all the gods in the bible?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen on gods of the bible

Gods mentioned in the Bible:

Adrammelech ...II Kings 17:31 ... Sepharvite God.
Anammelech ... II Kings 17:31 ... Sepharvite God.
Ashima ... II Kings 17:30 ... Samaritan Moon Goddess.
Ashtoreth ... I Kings 11:05 ... Canaanite Goddess.
Baal ... I Kings 18:19 ... Canaanite God ("Lord") of fertility, vegitation, and storms.

Baal-berith ... Judges 8:33 ... A regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-peor ... Numbers 25:03 ... Moabite regional variation/aspect of Baal.

Baal-zebub ... Luke 11:19 ... Philistine/Ekronian regional variation/aspect of Baal.

Baalim ... I Kings 18:18 ... Canaanite Gods ("Lords"), a collective of the different aspects of Baal.

Bel ... Isiah 46:01 ... Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian God ("Lord").
Chemosh ... I Kings 11:07 ... Moabite war God.
Dagon ... I Samuel 05:02 ... Philistine/Ekronian/Babylonian God of agriculture.
Diana of the ... Acts 19:35 ... Ephesian moon and nature Goddess, ("Divine/Brilliant").

Jehovah ... Exodus 6:03 ... Hebrew God
Jupiter ... Acts 14:12 ... Roman God (possibly derived from 'Zeus-pater', Father Zeus).

Lucifer ... Isiah 14:12 ... ("Light-Bearer")
Mercurius ... Acts 14:12 ... Otherwise known as the Roman God Mercury, God of communication and travel, and messenger of the Gods...which is probably why Paul was called this at Lystra.

Milcom ... I Kings 11:05 ... Ammonite God
Molech ... I Kings 11:07 ... Ammonite God, also called Moloch, most probably Baal-Hammon of Carthage.

Nebo ... Isiah 46:01 ... Assyrian/Babylonian/Chaldean God of wisdom and writing, also called Nergal

Nabu. ... II Kings 17:30 ... Cuth/Assyrian/Babylonian war and underworld God, also called Meshlamthea.

Nibhaz ... II Kings 17:31 ... Avites God
Nisroch ... II Kings 19:37 ... Assyrian God
Rimmon ... II Kings 05:18 ... Babylonian/Syrian storm God involved (as Ramman) with the Deluge, according to Hebrew texts; also known as Ramman/Rammon.

Succoth-benoth ... II Kings 17:30 ... Babylonian fertility Goddess ("She Who Produces Seed"), also known as Zarpanitu/Zerpanitum.

Tammuz ... Ezekial 8:14 ... Assyrian/Babylonian God
Tartak ... II Kings 17:31 ... Avites God

Since they are in the bible, they must be real, yes?

This is an interesting question to you?

So because "gods" of various tribes are listed in the Bible, Bible believers must believe in them? The point you are passively making is that because other gods are preached, and they are false, then the Bible God is also false.

What would you say: a man is married to one woman, however, over the years many women come to him and claim that they are really his wife (or at least should be). Does this then make the man's wife a "false wife" just because other claim to be his real wife?

RAFH · 08-27-2007, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

Do you, as a matter of fact, judge the existence of Zeus, Thor etc as something to reserve judgement on?

David B (refrains from further comment, at this point)

Real quick:

Zeus, like all other Greek gods was based on nature. Once science revealed nature the gods that were tacked to them eventually lost adherents. Bible God (as He is affectionately known here) is not tacked to nature but is the Creator and Sustainer of it. Let science discover where the universe came from and what sustains it and Bible God will go away too.

I don't know much about Thor worship but I do know he supposedly lived in a giant's shoe or something to that effect? Doesn't sound like anyone really took Thor worship seriously. I do dig a god with a hammer though.

Have you ever really studied other gods? I ask because your above descriptions are way off mark. The Greek gods were not nature bound, but rather idealized as having specific realms of influence, however they could each meddle in the realms of the others. For the most part, though, those external natures were proxies for human character and behavior, primarily that within the mind.

You really should study what you speak of before you insert your foot in your mouth. It doesn't always prevent that result but at least informed toe jam tastes better than the ignorant variety.

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08-26-2007, 05:17 PM	#25
Rhaedas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,440	Where does this leave those that have spent a good part of their lives searching, believing, and not getting the clear messages you seem to get? Why does God ignore their need to know he's real? Why does God work his miracles in vagueness or circumstantial situations? I'll just live a good life, be nice to people, and try to make a difference in this world, the only one that it seems we have. If God needs me to believe in him, he knows what it'll take, and he knows where to find me. And if he condemns me because I couldn't make myself believe in something that I don't see a reason to blindly believe in, well, I can't win that game, can I?

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