Veil of Fire

Gawd needed a bus driver.

DB_Hunter

On of the parentals is quoted as saying, "It is the fallenness (sic) of the world..."

Seriously disturbing...

DB

schu

And those who were injured and survived had to suffer? Some kind of wonderful diety is this god!

Mageth

Originally posted by Don Morgan:

If this is NOT a good time or place to criticize those who would pray after the fact of a tragedy such as this, I'd like to know where the right time and place are.

Well, I said "not the right time", not "not the right time or place". This is obviously a "right" place for such criticism. And I've done quite a bit of such criticism here in my time. It's just that, when I initially read this thread, it just struck me as a bit, well, tacky to be making some of the comments while the events were still transpiring. That is, of course, a personal observation, and I'm not condemning anyone.

My opinion is that in the long run, we are far better off to make what we believe accord with reality than we are to continue to find some alleged psychological/emotional benefit in believing in rubbish...

I agree with you for the most part, but I do think some people do find solace in their myths. Admittedly, those people use those myths as a crutch for dealing with reality, and I think we should continue in our criticisms of using such crutches. It just bothers me a bit that we feel compelled to kick at their crutches while their legs are freshly broken.

Perhaps with a bit more gentleness and sensitivity we could be more effective in our arguments. In my opinion, a Christian reading this thread today is more likely to feel a bit taken aback by the insensitivity of the (timing of the) comments than impressed by our criticisms of prayer and religious rationalizations.

ashibaka

Yeah, well, the ones who were injured and have to stay in this mortal realm are the kids who were passing notes in Bible study and asking awkward questions about the nature of God. Obviously.

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: ashibaka ]</p>

trunks2k

While we're on the subject of Church bus crashes, there was one yesterday in Waterbury, Connecticut (although this one is a charter bus). The bus was traveling back from a church trip to Niagra falls when it seems the bus driver went into some sort of shock from his diabetes. The bus rolled over, flew into the air and ended up killing five people. I must be getting jaded because as tragic as it is, I can still hear my friend saying "WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW BITCH?!"* in the back of my mind....

*He said this at lunch when I was at school we were watching the news and some nun had gotten hit by a car and he just yells that out really loud, attracting the attention of the rest of the cafe.

Quatermass

I think they pray in reaction to the senseless tragedy they just witnessed or experienced. It gives a sense of having some control - or at least trying to connect to a rational force they think has control. False hope and false help.

It's hard for anyone to face the notion that God's wonderful plan has a very dark side to it. And I'm sure those involved are feeling the hollow emptyness of the "God's mysterious ways" answer.

But sadly if some poor soul, whose life was permanently shattered by this monumental case of misfortune, turns to God then somehow it all becomes worth it. I noticed too that God gets the credit for not killing all aboard. Miraculous indeed.

I have kids that age and I feel sad for those involved but it sure doesn't make me look to heaven for solace.

-DM-

If they can do no more?

You don't think that they could, in fact, think of something more to do?

Noble? Prayer doesn't fit with my understanding (which is based on the standard dictionary definition) of the word "noble."

--Don--

Arrowman

What is "noble" about it? They are merely following what they see as the ritual requirements of their belief in a particular piece of supernaturalism. I respect their right to their beliefs in a free society, but I do not feel obliged to respect those beliefs themselves, or ascribe to them characteristics such as "noble" just because they are religious beliefs.

I have seen it suggested that a given priest (who was a good and compassionate man in the general sense) should be "respected" because of his deep devotion to his religion. My response: I respect his good works and compassion for his fellow human beings. I feel no obligation to "respect" him just because he has a particular set of supernatural beliefs. By contrast, am I not worthy of respect, because I don't have a set of supernatural beliefs?

A fair assessment. Given my personal preference for "making a difference in preference to making a point", I'd have to agree. But we're not (and I hope, wouldn't) jumping up and down in the faces of the people at the crash site, making fun of them, and there's plenty of more inflammatory stuff on this board. If we "thought about the lurkers" too much, there'll never be any decent discussion. Still, just to be sure, may I suggest the following disclaimer:
Attention lurkers - in particular, Christian or doubting Christians: Please note that the main thrust of the above discussion, despite the occasional sarcasm and apparent disrespect for the people involved in this terrible tragedy, is that prayer doesn't work and in particular, that prayer after a tragedy such as this, is one of the most bizarre and delusional aspects of the Christian faith. If you can recognise that and separate the steak from the sizzle, you are demonstrating symptoms of objective and rational thought. Please continue. Perhaps you disagree, and you may wish to join the discussion. If you do not understand the discussion, have a nice day and please don't bother us with your preaching.

wildernesse

As a Christian, I disagree with your assessment of prayer as misguided and worthless. But since there seems to be a question about why on earth people would pray after the fact, maybe they’re finding solace in a time of great tragedy. I know that this has been said before, by several people. My question is—What’s the rational way to respond to this? What would you do in their shoes? (I’m not suggesting that you would pray.) Also, in response to the question about why do people keep thinking that prayer works—why do you think that prayer only involves requests about getting miracles/blessings/your way? I think that many people would say that prayer is about developing a personal relationship with God, not about getting mail-order presents.

-tiba