Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Golgo_13 · 04-02-2003, 07:03 AM

Haven't you heard that the word of God is "alive"?

That's only valid if you are a believer in the religion that propagates such an idea. What merit does such a claim have to somebody not already indoctrinated?

Have you heard that the Qur'an is written in such beautiful form that it is not possible for man to invent it?

jmborr · 04-02-2003, 08:19 AM

Or this way. You kill someone. An innocent man is put on trial in your place. Morally, should you let him take the punishment for you, or come forward and admit your guilt and suffer the consequences even if the innocent man is taking your place voluntarily?
But you assume that you can pay the punishment, while christianity says the "crime" is too high for you to pay. This is the humble part: accept that your "crime" is way too big for your means, and let Jesus pay it for you.

Better?
Yep. I agree the second can't come without the first.

Wrong; this passage indicates the Father is he who judges, not Jesus. Read it again carefully.
Well, I suck at explaining myself

I wanted to say
that you are rigth, that the Father judges, and that
Jesus executes the sentence by wording it.

The Christian is not offering me a marvelous gift - He is apologizing and asking me to forgive him.
I was referring to God. The christian God shows up at my door with a gift, and the Muslim God comes also with the same thing, but instead he is selling it. Now, I have offended this two "guys" some time ago and I have to come to terms with them. You can see that the Muslim God is less embarrassing to treat with. You can still retain some of your pride by buying the item, instead of accepting it as a gift.

Put it this way. You severely offend one person. Do you send someone else to make amends or go yourself to apologize?
and
So two men wrong you severely. One comes to the door, and apologizes, then suggests you forgive and forget by cutting off your right hand and having it sewn back on.
We do not suggest what action God should take. God has decided what to do and then it is to us to accept it. Neither do I send Jesus to God, nor do I tell God how has to deal with Jesus.

Have you heard that the Qur'an is written in such beautiful form that it is not possible for man to invent it?
Yes, I have read one english tranlation and it sucks. But I have listened (in TV) reciting the Koran in arabic, and it sounded very nice, even though I did not understand a thing. I guess I missed a lot with the english translation.

Before
learning arabic

, I have to find a much better english translation and try again.

Amaranth · 04-02-2003, 08:35 AM

*chuckle*

Is it more humble to accept a gift, or to accept a fundemental change in lifestyle? The Christian god demands belief and admittance of sin; the Islamic god demands all of this, as well as active work and ritual towards salvation.

Is there any question who is giving up more of what they desire to gain their gods acceptance?

Mageth · 04-02-2003, 08:53 AM

jmborr:

But you assume that you can pay the punishment, while christianity says the "crime" is too high for you to pay. This is the humble part: accept that your "crime" is way too big for your means, and let Jesus pay it for you.

Well, I was really asking for what you think one should morally do in that particular situation, but tha's OK.

I assume that, morally, one should pay the punishment, and not another for you, if there's punishment to be paid.

I'm sorry, I just dont' buy it. A person who is the model of morality and kindness throughout their lives, yet doesn't humble themselves before the Christian god, has committed a "crime" too high to pay themselves, and thus is going to suffer in hell for eternity? That just doesn't make any sense. How about an innocent child that dies? Is it condemned as well because it can't pay for its crimes?

And I don't get the "humble" part. How is it "humble" to allow a scapegoat to accept punishment for your crime, allowing you to get off scot-free?

Well, I suck at explaining myself I wanted to say that you are rigth, that the Father judges, and that Jesus executes the sentence by wording it.

I don't think the bible describes Jesus as "executing the sentence", either.

And, jmborr, I request in your future post that you don't mix quotes of and responses to more than one poster without at least identifying their particular quotes.

jmborr · 04-02-2003, 08:58 AM

Is it more humble to accept a gift, or to accept a fundemental change in lifestyle? The Christian god demands belief and admittance of sin; the Islamic god demands all of this, as well as active work and ritual towards salvation.
Now I am really puzzled. What kind of christian does not change his lifestyle when he/she becomes a christian? active work is the fruit of your faith, and no work is signal that your faith is dead. See this:
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' ---Mat 7:19-23
Now, the muslim may work because he wants to be saved, but the christian works as he result of his faith that he has been already saved.

Mageth · 04-02-2003, 09:25 AM

Now I am really puzzled. What kind of christian does not change his lifestyle when he/she becomes a christian? active work is the fruit of your faith, and no work is signal that your faith is dead.

OK, so work is required of the christian to obtain salvation, just like the Muslim?

Amaranth · 04-02-2003, 12:26 PM

What kind of Christian? The kind that believes in god, I suppose. My experiences in Methodist, Baptist, and "generic" Christian churches taught me that the way to salvation was to admit before Christ that I was a sinner, and to believe that he died on the cross to save me. That was it. There were plenty of recommendations for good living, but any deviation was completely forgivable as long as I asked Christ to be forgiven. The Catholic church is the only one I am aware of that requires any sort of formalized ritual for forgiveness for sin.

Thus, the Christians work towards salvation is saying "I'm sorry", while the Islamics live under their gods rules and rituals to attain the same. I ask again: Which is more humble - To bow down and accept a gift, or to bow down and accept instruction that neccessitates a change in your very lifestyle?

And since this refuses to die, perhaps it should be mentioned that the fact you feel it necessary to point out the superiour humility of Christianity is ironic.

jmborr · 04-02-2003, 02:29 PM

by Mageth A person who is the model of morality and kindness throughout their lives, yet doesn't humble themselves before the Christian god, has committed a "crime" too high to pay themselves, and thus is going to suffer in hell for eternity? That just doesn't make any sense. How about an innocent child that dies? Is it condemned as well because it can't pay for its crimes?
The truth? I have no clue! But again, I am relief I do not have to judge about this, but it is God who does it. (see John 12:47-49)

by Mageth How is it "humble" to allow a scapegoat to accept punishment for your crime, allowing you to get off scot-free?
The way you put it, it seems as though you did not repent of your sins, and yet allow Jesus to be crucified.
if you feel really guilty about something, then the first thing you want to do is restitution. Isn't it the natural and fair thing to do? But christianity does not allow you to do that, and again, if you really feel guilty, you tend to rebel against this prohibition, because YOU want to fix things.
I am sorry if I can't be clear.

by Mageth OK, so work is required of the christian to obtain salvation, just like the Muslim?
Muslim: I work, thus I am saved.
Christian: I am saved, thus I work.
So you should see both working.

by Amaranth it should be mentioned that the fact you feel it necessary to point out the superiour humility of Christianity is ironic.
Thank you for pointing out that. I really wanted to make my points clear to you and I crossed the line. I will not post any more on the subject.

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04-02-2003, 07:03 AM	#101
Golgo_13 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 207	Haven't you heard that the word of God is "alive"? That's only valid if you are a believer in the religion that propagates such an idea. What merit does such a claim have to somebody not already indoctrinated? Have you heard that the Qur'an is written in such beautiful form that it is not possible for man to invent it?

04-02-2003, 08:19 AM	#102
jmborr Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: everett MA USA Posts: 46	Or this way. You kill someone. An innocent man is put on trial in your place. Morally, should you let him take the punishment for you, or come forward and admit your guilt and suffer the consequences even if the innocent man is taking your place voluntarily? But you assume that you can pay the punishment, while christianity says the "crime" is too high for you to pay. This is the humble part: accept that your "crime" is way too big for your means, and let Jesus pay it for you. Better? Yep. I agree the second can't come without the first. Wrong; this passage indicates the Father is he who judges, not Jesus. Read it again carefully. Well, I suck at explaining myself I wanted to say that you are rigth, that the Father judges, and that Jesus executes the sentence by wording it. The Christian is not offering me a marvelous gift - He is apologizing and asking me to forgive him. I was referring to God. The christian God shows up at my door with a gift, and the Muslim God comes also with the same thing, but instead he is selling it. Now, I have offended this two "guys" some time ago and I have to come to terms with them. You can see that the Muslim God is less embarrassing to treat with. You can still retain some of your pride by buying the item, instead of accepting it as a gift. Put it this way. You severely offend one person. Do you send someone else to make amends or go yourself to apologize? and So two men wrong you severely. One comes to the door, and apologizes, then suggests you forgive and forget by cutting off your right hand and having it sewn back on. We do not suggest what action God should take. God has decided what to do and then it is to us to accept it. Neither do I send Jesus to God, nor do I tell God how has to deal with Jesus. Have you heard that the Qur'an is written in such beautiful form that it is not possible for man to invent it? Yes, I have read one english tranlation and it sucks. But I have listened (in TV) reciting the Koran in arabic, and it sounded very nice, even though I did not understand a thing. I guess I missed a lot with the english translation. Before learning arabic , I have to find a much better english translation and try again.

04-02-2003, 08:35 AM	#103
Amaranth Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kansas City Posts: 279	chuckle Is it more humble to accept a gift, or to accept a fundemental change in lifestyle? The Christian god demands belief and admittance of sin; the Islamic god demands all of this, as well as active work and ritual towards salvation. Is there any question who is giving up more of what they desire to gain their gods acceptance?

04-02-2003, 08:53 AM	#104
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	jmborr: But you assume that you can pay the punishment, while christianity says the "crime" is too high for you to pay. This is the humble part: accept that your "crime" is way too big for your means, and let Jesus pay it for you. Well, I was really asking for what you think one should morally do in that particular situation, but tha's OK. I assume that, morally, one should pay the punishment, and not another for you, if there's punishment to be paid. I'm sorry, I just dont' buy it. A person who is the model of morality and kindness throughout their lives, yet doesn't humble themselves before the Christian god, has committed a "crime" too high to pay themselves, and thus is going to suffer in hell for eternity? That just doesn't make any sense. How about an innocent child that dies? Is it condemned as well because it can't pay for its crimes? And I don't get the "humble" part. How is it "humble" to allow a scapegoat to accept punishment for your crime, allowing you to get off scot-free? Well, I suck at explaining myself I wanted to say that you are rigth, that the Father judges, and that Jesus executes the sentence by wording it. I don't think the bible describes Jesus as "executing the sentence", either. And, jmborr, I request in your future post that you don't mix quotes of and responses to more than one poster without at least identifying their particular quotes.

04-02-2003, 08:58 AM	#105
jmborr Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: everett MA USA Posts: 46	Is it more humble to accept a gift, or to accept a fundemental change in lifestyle? The Christian god demands belief and admittance of sin; the Islamic god demands all of this, as well as active work and ritual towards salvation. Now I am really puzzled. What kind of christian does not change his lifestyle when he/she becomes a christian? active work is the fruit of your faith, and no work is signal that your faith is dead. See this: Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' ---Mat 7:19-23 Now, the muslim may work because he wants to be saved, but the christian works as he result of his faith that he has been already saved.

04-02-2003, 09:25 AM	#106
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Now I am really puzzled. What kind of christian does not change his lifestyle when he/she becomes a christian? active work is the fruit of your faith, and no work is signal that your faith is dead. OK, so work is required of the christian to obtain salvation, just like the Muslim?

04-02-2003, 12:26 PM	#107
Amaranth Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kansas City Posts: 279	What kind of Christian? The kind that believes in god, I suppose. My experiences in Methodist, Baptist, and "generic" Christian churches taught me that the way to salvation was to admit before Christ that I was a sinner, and to believe that he died on the cross to save me. That was it. There were plenty of recommendations for good living, but any deviation was completely forgivable as long as I asked Christ to be forgiven. The Catholic church is the only one I am aware of that requires any sort of formalized ritual for forgiveness for sin. Thus, the Christians work towards salvation is saying "I'm sorry", while the Islamics live under their gods rules and rituals to attain the same. I ask again: Which is more humble - To bow down and accept a gift, or to bow down and accept instruction that neccessitates a change in your very lifestyle? And since this refuses to die, perhaps it should be mentioned that the fact you feel it necessary to point out the superiour humility of Christianity is ironic.

04-02-2003, 02:29 PM	#108
jmborr Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: everett MA USA Posts: 46	by Mageth A person who is the model of morality and kindness throughout their lives, yet doesn't humble themselves before the Christian god, has committed a "crime" too high to pay themselves, and thus is going to suffer in hell for eternity? That just doesn't make any sense. How about an innocent child that dies? Is it condemned as well because it can't pay for its crimes? The truth? I have no clue! But again, I am relief I do not have to judge about this, but it is God who does it. (see John 12:47-49) by Mageth How is it "humble" to allow a scapegoat to accept punishment for your crime, allowing you to get off scot-free? The way you put it, it seems as though you did not repent of your sins, and yet allow Jesus to be crucified. if you feel really guilty about something, then the first thing you want to do is restitution. Isn't it the natural and fair thing to do? But christianity does not allow you to do that, and again, if you really feel guilty, you tend to rebel against this prohibition, because YOU want to fix things. I am sorry if I can't be clear. by Mageth OK, so work is required of the christian to obtain salvation, just like the Muslim? Muslim: I work, thus I am saved. Christian: I am saved, thus I work. So you should see both working. by Amaranth it should be mentioned that the fact you feel it necessary to point out the superiour humility of Christianity is ironic. Thank you for pointing out that. I really wanted to make my points clear to you and I crossed the line. I will not post any more on the subject.

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