Dr Rick

That's a lie, I do not assert anything of the sort.

Why must you lie?

Rick

Dr Rick

...and why must you be such a jerk?

scombrid

I just googled acupuncture. All of the pro-acupuncture sights that I viewed linked meridians and chi to the effects of acupuncture. Therefore it is not a straw man to associate acupuncture with mysticism. No physical causative element for the efficacy of acupuncture was demonstrated or even posited. At least with chemical pain relievers we can locate the actual chemical pathway that is affected within the body to alleviate pain. Furthermore I found no studies using a control group that showed positive results for acupuncture. All positive results came from the “it worked for me” crowd. Yeah, and those magnetic bracelet with fix my golf swing.

Two control group studies that I have read include the following techniques:

Compare a group receiving acupuncture to a group receiving “sham” acupuncture. Sham acupuncture in this case consisted of trained practitioners inserting needles in the wrong locations in the control group versus the study group that received acupuncture in the appropriate locations. No difference in response was detected between the groups. Conclusion? Either just sticking needles willy-nilly is effective in pain reduction or neither group received particular benefit from the treatments.

The other technique has already been mentioned in this thread. The control group received fake needle insertion in which the sensation of needle insertion was duplicated. Once again, the group actually receiving acupuncture and the group receiving the fake treatment reported the same result.

My conclusion, based on the fact these two studies and the fact that I can’t find pro-acupuncture information that doesn’t rely on mysticism, is that it is crap just like every other alternative medicine that has failed to withstand scrutiny. Any perceived benefits from this particular treatment are the result of post hoc reasoning, placebo effect, and/or confirmation bias.

NialScorva

Tron says:
Corwin replies:

First, Corwin doesn't say all claims, leading me to believe that in his opinion some acupuncturists make claims that are 'too strong'. Secondly, we have no idea what claims are being debated, just some hypothetical claims. It never gets any better defined than that through the rest of the thread.

Rick replies:
How is this not a valid complaint? By my reading, Corwin is making a blanket statement that allows him to dismiss some unspecified claims out of hand and further avoid addressing the issue to play definition and sematic games. Rick seems to be cutting back to the point that who makes the claims is irrelavent when pretty much no claim is backed. I think Rick is looking for even *one* claim that has support that isn't ridden with methodological or conflict of interest issues.

Reread Corwin's responses to me, he's done nothing but put his fingers in his ears and repeat the same things to me each time. I explain why his definition of 'anecdote' is hopelessly naive for this discussion, why the definitions don't apply here, why they don't even support him even if they did apply, and the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence. I'll tell you right now that there are obvious holes in what I've posted, and they're there for a simple reason: if he read what I wrote with intent to debate, he has an obvious path for discussion. Since he hasn't even tried, I am led to believe that he isn't interested in rational debate.

I see you doing a similar tactic right now. How about ignoring Kally and the Rick vs Corwin piss match and answering the debates?

Mad Kally

Thanks Nial. Time for another shift change.

Corwin

Except that their (allegedly) factual statements are limited to comments about my bowel movements....

NialScorva

Well, that and what was said on page 4 and earlier, before it became pointless to even try to argue.

Corwin

It was pointless even then. Dr Rick seems to have a complete lack of any grasp of even the most fundamental rules of logic, and gets nasty when someone throws him a curve ball.

Kal just gets nasty when anyone dares to disagree with her.

Dr Rick

They're just a lot more interesting than anything else that comes out of you; take, for example, these preceeding comments:

It is hypocritical of you and the rest to whine as you do about the lack of civility in this thread. If you wanted a civil discussion, you should have been civil.

Rick

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

Corwin

You haven't seen me 'incivil.'

Of course, if I wanted to get vaguely incivil... I could call you a culturally illiterate boor for missing a Monty Python reference, and childishly using that as an excuse to make personal attacks....

But I'm avoiding that sort of situation.