Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Pitshade,

I did read your whole post. It was slightly confusing for these reasons:

A-You quote Mark 16:17-18
...and then say...
However this is false. On any given Sunday go to almost any Pentecostal church in any town and you'll see people speaking in tougues and laying their hand on the sick, etc.

Even better, for a real treat...drive out to some back woods town in the Ozarks and stop in at Billy Bob's House O Salvation and Snake Handlin.

Granted I'd never do it, but...


B-You also forgot to include
John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.


So in both cases the 'miracle' (by your standards) is still occuring and very much alive and well. This was confusing...thus my question:


What do you mean by 'stopped'?


Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Mad Kally

I believe he is...

tronvillain

SOMMS:
As far as I can tell, that is not what Melaclypse said at all. He said that he cannot know what happened two thousand years ago, but that does not preclude having beliefs about what happened two thousand years ago.

Malaclypse the Younger

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Please try to read the posts carefully. I do not (indeed cannot) know as fact that either JC actually existed. I can draw inferences from the facts I do have, however, to create some degree of rational belief in their past existence.

Since I'm not particularly interested in history, my beliefs about both JC's are rather weak. However, the inference as to Caesar's past existence seems sufficiently superficially plausible as to justify a weak belief. Jesus's past existence is less superficially plausible, and I am frankly uncertain (and not particularly motivated to find out more).

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Malaclypse the Younger ]</p>

GunnerJ

Proving once again that when evidence falsifies a cherished belief, freethinkers dismiss the belief, while cult members dismiss the evidence.

TollHouse

Rimstalker:
Very well said! Do you mind if I use this from time to time?

GunnerJ

Well, thank you. You can use this as much as you want, as it's not exactly an original expression; I adapted it from something else.

Datheron

Yes; now we just have trouble distinguishing between an unbased assertion, and a hypothetical situation.

Pitshade

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:

You quoted me as saying These things do not however "accompany those who believe." however you seem to have forgotten to quote the following sentence. In it, I said, Only the Pentacostals have had faith enough to test them, with sometimes disasterous results. Restoring this omission makes the exchange look like this:

Pitshade: These things do not however "accompany those who believe." Only the Pentacostals have had faith enough to test them, with sometimes disasterous results.

SOMMS: However this is false. On any given Sunday go to almost any Pentecostal church in any town and you'll see people speaking in tougues and laying their hand on the sick, etc.
Even better, for a real treat...drive out to some back woods town in the Ozarks and stop in at Billy Bob's House O Salvation and Snake Handlin.

Looks different like that, doesn't it? How did you 'grab' the part you quoted and yet still manage to miss that I had already brought up the Pentecostals? But whatever, let's look at the evidence you offered to support that the miracle is still going. First of all, Jesus is quoted as having said that those who believe will exhibit these signs: casting out demons; speaking in new tongues; immunity to poison; healing the sick.

I won't address casting out demons since the existence of said beings is a whole new question. The next in line is speaking in tongues. Now Paul goes in to some detail about this in 1Corrinthians. Here are some verses that apply to this discussion:

1 Corr 14:22-23 then 27-28
Thus, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. If, therefore, the whole church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

&lt;snip verses about prophesying&gt;

If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.

As far as I know, the Pentecostals who speak in tongues don't provide interpreters. Of course I've only read a few accounts of these services. So maybe you have some new evidence to show that they aren't just babbling or something?

Now for the snakes/poison thing. Pentecostals do in fact handle snakes, but they don't encourage the serpents to actually bite them. The snakes are kept well fed and cool which coincidently makes them less prone to strike. The manner they are handled also helps to prevent them testing anyone's faith. The critters are picked up from behind which prevents them from fighting back. One snakebite usually isn't fatal to an adult but the Pentecostals are still affected, which shouldn't happen if they are in fact protected.

Finally there is the laying on of hands. I don't doubt that they lay hands on each other frequently, but what comes of it? (Besides little Pentecostals!) Is there any verification of these claims? It seems simple enough, if they can cure the sick, surely there wouldn't be any sick Pentecostals. Somehow I don't think this is backed up by facts, but maybe you can show them to me.

Don't you believe in Jesus? If you can't do any of these works, maybe you're not really a Christian? If we consider your statement about the Pentecostals being evidence that the miracle is continuing, and the testimony about Jesus in the NT is correct, then logically only the Pentecostals really believe! Of course as I've shown above, they aren't very good evidence anyway…

This is really more ammunition against your position. Thank you, I'd overlooked it. The very schismatic nature of the church stands as evidence that this isn't so. If the Holy Spirit were in fact teaching Christians about all things, why can't they agree on so many important doctrinal issues? You might consider reading 'Thomas Doubting's article in the SecWeb Kiosk, it goes into this in great detail.


I believe I've shown that your evidence is unsound. Stopped, as in the miracles seem to have died with the NT writers. The gospels go in to a lot of detail about the miracles and sayings of Jesus in order to show that he was the 'Son of God.' You can't just say Jesus died and was resurrected because the gospels say so, and then ignore the other claims.


Are you unconfused now?

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Pitshade ]</p>

pescifish