Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 05-29-2003, 05:50 PM

The answer would be no, you couldn't have. Because you base your decisions on those parameters. If you had different parameters that you used, then yes. The decision could have been different.

Umm, that's determinism. Not much room for "free will" there, if your decisions are determined by the input parameters. That's just how a computer program works.

Tarnaak · 05-29-2003, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Umm, that's determinism. Not much room for "free will" there, if your decisions are determined by the input parameters

In that case, with or without a God, you still don't have freewill. All choices are only reactions to input recieved.

BadBadBad · 05-29-2003, 08:42 PM

Mageth,

Over and over I see this with no basis in the Bible for it:

"Just because God knows what choice you are going to make, doesn't preclude you from making YOUR OWN CHOICE. God does not make the choice for you. You make the choice. "

Over and over I see the response:

"How can I be said to have free will if I can't choose any option but the one god already knows I'm going to make?"

Sure would be nice to hear just one christian show me where it says that in the Bible and just once answer the question. If it's in the Bible, I'd be happy to accept being wrong. At least in the OP, JakeJohnson got a God works in mysterious ways from the preacher. We're not even getting that!

Mageth · 05-30-2003, 12:01 AM

Right on, brettc.

Tarnaak said:
In that case, with or without a God, you still don't have freewill. All choices are only reactions to input recieved.

Well, you said it, not me. But I think there's other things that influence our reactions than just "inputs received". But anyways, I happen to believe that we don't have true free will; what we have is a useful illusion of free will. Our decisions are pretty much determined by factors outside of our control. I can live with that. I don't think the universe is wholly deterministic, though; quantum physics pretty much precludes that.

Nowhere357 · 05-30-2003, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen T-B
I don�t look for a reply, Nowhere357, but my question was: could you have ever made a different decision than that which you made?
Bear in mind A) your state of knowledge at the time and B) the outcome you desired.

I seriously wonder if you have any control over either A) or B)

Yes - that is what making decisions means.

A) At the time I only have one state of knowledge, but a given state can lead to a variety of other states, like dropping a die leads to one of six outcomes. Here then is plenty of room for will to operate.

B) The thing about will is it gives us some ability to overcome our urges, desires, reflexes, etc. So regardless of the outcome I desired, I could decide differently.

Quote:

I seriously wonder if you have any control over either A) or B)

Well, I have to deal with the current state of knowledge at the time, but notice that I can decide to study and learn and thereby affect my future "current states of knowledge".

If we have a desire, then we have a desire. But we can attempt to ignore or resist it if we choose, and the way we treat our current desires affects the way they will feel to us in the future.

So I have no control over the current state of knowledge or the currently felt desires, but I have (some) control over the future states of knowledge and desire.

We are responsible for our actions, and we can affect the world.

Tarnaak · 05-30-2003, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brettc
Mageth,

Over and over I see this with no basis in the Bible for it:

"Just because God knows what choice you are going to make, doesn't preclude you from making YOUR OWN CHOICE. God does not make the choice for you. You make the choice. "

Over and over I see the response:

"How can I be said to have free will if I can't choose any option but the one god already knows I'm going to make?"

Sure would be nice to hear just one christian show me where it says that in the Bible and just once answer the question. If it's in the Bible, I'd be happy to accept being wrong. At least in the OP, JakeJohnson got a God works in mysterious ways from the preacher. We're not even getting that!

How can you accept being wrong from me quoting that which you do not believe in?

What we are debating here is a CONCEPT taken from the Bible as a whole, not a verse.

Tarnaak · 05-30-2003, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nowhere357
Yes - that is what making decisions means.

A) At the time I only have one state of knowledge, but a given state can lead to a variety of other states, like dropping a die leads to one of six outcomes. Here then is plenty of room for will to operate.

B) The thing about will is it gives us some ability to overcome our urges, desires, reflexes, etc. So regardless of the outcome I desired, I could decide differently.

Well, I have to deal with the current state of knowledge at the time, but notice that I can decide to study and learn and thereby affect my future "current states of knowledge".

If we have a desire, then we have a desire. But we can attempt to ignore or resist it if we choose, and the way we treat our current desires affects the way they will feel to us in the future.

So I have no control over the current state of knowledge or the currently felt desires, but I have (some) control over the future states of knowledge and desire.

We are responsible for our actions, and we can affect the world.

Well said, bravo.

Wish I could have said that, it makes my point perfectly, relating to my prior response on choice. With knowledge gained, you can make a different choice. Yes, some choices are irreversable, but in beliefs choices are always open ended.

Sabine Grant · 05-30-2003, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brettc
You'd think we are using a foreign language. I don't know how many times here lately that I've had to pull out the dictionary and post definitions of basic every day words. It's like we're interrogating Bill Clinton on sex in the White House.

I understood your question, and thanks NOGO for your help. Don't expect an answer from the christians though. You're not going to find it in previous posts or any future posts. Predestination and omniscience are paradoxes. The Bible is pure nonsense. There is no god, and we have free will do what ever we want.

I am back... I guess Brettc you may not be aware of the fact that some of us are using a foreign language. In my case, English is not my native language. And it certainly would make things easier for me to express my thoughts in my own native language.

Sabine Grant · 05-30-2003, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveD
Sabine,
I don't understand this statement,

The way I read this is that someone can actually make free will choices along the way but there ultimate destiny is sealed. Is that what you mean?

BTW I am working my way through the Westminster Confession of Faith as you suggested.

Steve

Hello Steve... What I mean is that fate is sealed no matter what choices an individual may make( which I do not believe). Which implies that events are already set in place in someone's life by the divine even as the person would try to avoid those events.
Good work on reading the Confession of Faith. The smaller catechism may be sufficient to grasp calvinist theology.

Biff the unclean · 05-30-2003, 03:05 PM

Tarnaak, I've been pouring through the bible for half a century now and I've never seen "free will" mentioned.
Where it is implied that it's the concept being preached God is always opposed to man having free will. He forbids Adam & Eve from gaining free will. He punishes them for taking free will. He destroys the tower of Babel and punishes everyone in the world for exercising free will. He lays down innumerable laws to circumvent man's free will. Brettc just gave us all of those NT quotes that are anti-free will. I have never heard a sermon that stressed the idea that you should think for yourself and make your own decisions or exercise your free will in any way.
Yet again and again on these boards I read Xians talking about how much God honors free will. Where did you guys get this idea from? It certainly doesn't come from either the OT or the NT. Who made this free will thing up?

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05-29-2003, 05:50 PM	#91
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	The answer would be no, you couldn't have. Because you base your decisions on those parameters. If you had different parameters that you used, then yes. The decision could have been different. Umm, that's determinism. Not much room for "free will" there, if your decisions are determined by the input parameters. That's just how a computer program works.

05-29-2003, 08:42 PM	#93
BadBadBad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: WHERE GOD IS NOT!!!!! Posts: 4,338	Mageth, Over and over I see this with no basis in the Bible for it: "Just because God knows what choice you are going to make, doesn't preclude you from making YOUR OWN CHOICE. God does not make the choice for you. You make the choice. " Over and over I see the response: "How can I be said to have free will if I can't choose any option but the one god already knows I'm going to make?" Sure would be nice to hear just one christian show me where it says that in the Bible and just once answer the question. If it's in the Bible, I'd be happy to accept being wrong. At least in the OP, JakeJohnson got a God works in mysterious ways from the preacher. We're not even getting that!

05-30-2003, 12:01 AM	#94
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Right on, brettc. Tarnaak said: In that case, with or without a God, you still don't have freewill. All choices are only reactions to input recieved. Well, you said it, not me. But I think there's other things that influence our reactions than just "inputs received". But anyways, I happen to believe that we don't have true free will; what we have is a useful illusion of free will. Our decisions are pretty much determined by factors outside of our control. I can live with that. I don't think the universe is wholly deterministic, though; quantum physics pretty much precludes that.

05-30-2003, 03:05 PM	#100
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Tarnaak, I've been pouring through the bible for half a century now and I've never seen "free will" mentioned. Where it is implied that it's the concept being preached God is always opposed to man having free will. He forbids Adam & Eve from gaining free will. He punishes them for taking free will. He destroys the tower of Babel and punishes everyone in the world for exercising free will. He lays down innumerable laws to circumvent man's free will. Brettc just gave us all of those NT quotes that are anti-free will. I have never heard a sermon that stressed the idea that you should think for yourself and make your own decisions or exercise your free will in any way. Yet again and again on these boards I read Xians talking about how much God honors free will. Where did you guys get this idea from? It certainly doesn't come from either the OT or the NT. Who made this free will thing up?

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