Foxhole Atheist

Well Albert, you get pretty “testy” at times, don’t you.

OK. Jesus founded the Catholic Church. I picked that up by the hints you gave me. Thank you. But, is that the same church as before Constantine or after Constantine?

Albert Cipriani

Dear Foxhole Atheist,
I sincerely apologize for my testiness. Mea Culpa, mea culpa. In my defense, you cannot imagine how much frustration I experience over some of these issues. I never mean to be mean and take it out on those who disagree with me. But it does come off like that.

I really mean to be ridiculing certain ideas, and not certain people. But I know if this were a court of law that defense would not stick. So allow me to throw myself on the mercy of the court. If you can be a Foxhole Atheist, surely can I not be exonerated in my own kangaroo court?

You ask what amounts to a Protestant canard,


Yes it is the same Church, the only Church that has unbroken Apostolic succession. Constantine simply made it legal. Before him, virtually all popes had been martyred by the HOLY Roman Empire. You might say, Mr. Foxhole, that Constantine delivered the Church from her foxhole. Cheers, Albert the Traditional Catholic

Foxhole Atheist

“If you can be a Foxhole Atheist, surely can I not be exonerated in my own kangaroo court?”

Absolutely.

“Constantine delivered the Church from her foxhole.”

I understand that Constantine unified the church to a great extent. However, I believe that unification was based upon an entirely different doctrine. Was it not? Thereby, the triune aspect of the godhead.

sidewinder

Oh yeah, the familiar claim of the Protestant ones, that the apostasy is happening and soon the judgement cometh. The second coming has been coming for 2000 years. I wonder why people can't plainly see from their own scriptures that Jesus predicted that the Kingdom of God (the second coming) would be within the lifetime of his disciples. But I know it probably makes Albert feel warm and fuzzy inside that he is one of the remnant. Many little church groups think they are going to be the remnant. In fact, Christians can't even agree on the what will happen at the second coming. There are many different interpretations. I think people are leaving organized religion because it has little or nothing to do with the real world. I hope people are beginning to see that the claims of these religions are false. It would be nice if most of us could focus on the here and now and how to make the world a better place to live instead of sitting around waiting for something that will never happen.

Albert Cipriani

Dear Foxhole,
Constantine did call for a badly needed ecumenical council of the Church. He did not run it, tho. The pope did.

The triune Godhead was disputed by secular leaders as it interfered with the metaphor of their own singular self-aggrandizement. This was known as the Arian heresy. It out-lasted Constantine by about a century.

Most of the Catholic Church hierarchy apostatized, including the Pope. St. Athenasius almost single-handedly saved orthodoxy. Of course he, like other saints after him (and the Old Testament prophets before him who were mostly stoned to death), was excommunicated (five times in fact) for his efforts. Orthodox Catholics are living through such times today. – Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Albert Cipriani ]</p>

Vibr8gKiwi

Jesus did no such thing--he was more likely to tear down organized religion than to set one up. However Paul came around and set one up in Jesus' name just like several others have since him (Joseph Smith of the Mormons comes to mind).

sidewinder

You don't honestly believe this, do you? It's right in your own Bible that Jesus had no intention of starting a new religion. He preached the imminent coming of the Kingdom of God. He preached much about this Kingdom, which he believed would radically change the world order at that time.

The verses in Matthew that you will quote to back up this assertion have long been admitted by most Bible scholars to have been invented by the author of Matthew's gospel. Jesus was a devout Jew who was faithful to the Jewish religion, as he interpreted it. He was not a Catholic by any stretch. The religion of Christianity was started by those who were followers of Jesus. They started this new religion after he died. They also preached that the Kingdom was coming very soon. Paul mentions this several times in his letters.

The organizing of Christianity didn't happen until late in the 1st century. The events of 70AD pretty much wiped out the Jewish followers of Jesus and we were left with mostly Gentile followers. These Gentile followers were the ones who started the religion of Christianity, which eventually evolved into the Catholic Church.

Albert Cipriani

Gee Viber8 and Sidewinder,
You averaged at least one un-argued assertion per sentence. If I wanted to read un-argued assertions I'd read my diaries. What they lack in logic they at least make up for in being interesting.

Viber8 says that because St. Paul set up the Catholic Church, it must not be the one true church because several others have done the same thing since him. Likedumb, we all know that Americans weren't the only ones that walked on the moon, for several other countries have started their own space programs.

Sidewinder says:


Well, excuse me for living and breathing! Celebrating Mass in underground tombs to avoid arrest torture and death while suffering the martyrdom of all your leaders in that first century and, I'll be damned, those Catholics didn't have the good sense to organize sooner! Proves they weren't true believers.

Now, if they had only organized say, by 70 AD when the apostle John were still alive, instead of 30 years thereafter, why that would have made all the difference. Then the Sindwinders of this world could believe. Oh, why, while they were living the lives of gophers, didn't they organize sooner?!

No non-offence intended, but your two posts are a waste of pixels. My terminal is the poorer for having blown away phosphorous to display them. Disgusted, Albert the Traditional Catholic

Theli

"...Then the Sindwinders of this world could believe."

Do you reckon that everyone would believe in catholism if it had been orginized 30 years earlier?
I think it's a small matter.
Catholism would still be catholism.

Albert Cipriani

Theli:


NO!!! That's my point... in the dull thick mud of what passes for an argument in these parts. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

What I said is known in the civilized world as sarcasm. What year Catholicism supposedly organized itself, whatever the hell that means, is even less than my small point, it is absolutely no point at all!

Excuse me while I go outside and chainsaw logs to get my mind off the frustration of this place. -- Albert <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />