Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Shake · 03-19-2003, 07:00 AM

Mom and Dad came over Monday night for dinner and to visit their grandson. Mom brought this godspam over that she had printed out, and read it to Dad and I (my wife was out at the time). I knew what it was as soon as I heard the first part. Dad chuckled at some parts that I didn't find very funny, and I mainly bit my tongue while she read it, although I made some very quick points in rebuttal. At the end is the old, "if you don't agree with this delete it." I made the statement that it would have been deleted here, but since I wasn't able to get to my email until this morning, I didn't know she'd already forwarded it. Dad was a poli. sci. major in college so he had some good counter points, but we didn't get into a heated debate over the whole thing. Yet!

Anyway, here's the offending godspam:

Quote:

> > > Something to ponder.
> > >
> > >
> > > Subject: THE TRUTH UNDERSTOOD...
> > >
> > >
> > > Samuel Thompson wrote:
> > >
> > I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue
> > somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December.
> > I don't agree with Darwin but I didn't go out and hire a
> > lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of
> > evolution. Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered
> > because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So
> > > what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the
> > > entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in
> > > and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the
> > > fans going home from the game.
> > >
> > > "But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is
> > > the United States of America, a country founded on Christian
> > > principles. And we are in the Bible Belt. According to our very
> > > own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better
> > > than 200-to-1. So what would you expect -- somebody chanting
> > > Hare Krishna? If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would
> > > expect to hear a Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in
> > > Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer. If I went to a
> > > ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray
> > > to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one
> > > bit. When in Rome...
> > >
> > > "But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What
> > > about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not
> > > going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If
> > > that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs.
> > > Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer.
> > > Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell
> > > thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short
> > > prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.
> > >
> > > Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek
> > > while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and
> > > grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we
> > > go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a
> > > handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease
> > > praying. God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you,
> > > well.....just sue me. The silent majority has been silent too long...
> > > it's time we let that one or two who scream loud enough to be
> > > heard, that the vast majority don't care what they want... it is time
> > > the majority rules!
> > >
> > > It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray.. you don't have
> > > to say the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God
> > > or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will
> > > honor your right... but by golly you are no longer going to take our
> > > rights away... we are fighting back... and we WILL WIN! After all
> > > the God you have the right to denounce is on our side!
> > >
> > > God bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him...
> > > God bless America, despite all her faults... still the greatest nation of all.....
> > >
> > > God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our
> > > right to pray and worship God...
> > >
> > > May 2003 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put
> > > God back as the foundation of our families and institutions. Keep
> > > looking up...... In God WE Trust
> > >
> > > If you agree with this, please pass it on.
> > If not, delete it!!

I am planning a point by point reply (to all), because this is the third time I've either read or heard this piece of trash, and that's 3 times too many! Actually, one, I would have just ignored, but 3 is just too much. I won't go into the separate points just now, because I think this particular spam was discussed here somewhat recently. Just needed to vent.

Thanks.
-Shake

simian · 03-19-2003, 08:36 AM

I think this exact spam has been addressed before. I would make it a point that the prayer before the football games was done by Southern Baptists to bash the Catholics and Mormons in the community. I don't have the link handy, but it was the Sante Fe School District in TX. The prayer was very specifically used to marginalize those not Southern Baptist in the community. Surprise, surprise, the ACLU helped the Christians (well, not the "true" Christians, but the Catholics and Mormons).

Ah, the ACLU has something on it here:
http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty...4&c=139&Type=s

Simian

Shake · 03-19-2003, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by simian
I think this exact spam has been addressed before. I would make it a point that the prayer before the football games was done by Southern Baptists to bash the Catholics and Mormons in the community. I don't have the link handy, but it was the Sante Fe School District in TX. The prayer was very specifically used to marginalize those not Southern Baptist in the community. Surprise, surprise, the ACLU helped the Christians (well, not the "true" Christians, but the Catholics and Mormons).

Ah, the ACLU has something on it here:
http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty...4&c=139&Type=s

Simian

Thanks for that link. I skimmed through it quickly, but what I really liked was summed up nicely in the early part.

Quote:

II. SANTA FE'S FOOTBALL POLICY VIOLATES EVERY EXTANT TEST UNDER THE ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE

A. Coercion

B. Endorsement

1. Purposeful Endorsement

2. Actual Message Of Endorsement

C. Preferential Access

D. The Lemon Test

1. Lack Of Secular Purpose

2. Primary Effect

I will later, but for the moment I don't need to read all of the details behind these points. It was nice to see that. Thanks!

Proxima Centauri · 03-24-2003, 08:40 AM

I think
Christians should be free to pray, in places like Churches.

American Christians should be free to pledge allegance to One Nation Under, 'God', in places like Churches.

British Christians should be free to pray that, 'God' save the Queen, in places like Churches.

Religious practices should not be forced onto Non-Christians outside Churches.

Despite the above Americans need to be careful that you don't offend the Believers too much and cause a backlash. You must decide how far to take this. I don't know on my side of the Atlantic.

scarmig · 03-24-2003, 10:10 AM

How about:

"I'll make you a deal. Can't lose. You believe what you want to believe. I'll believe what I want to believe. And if you're right, you get to say 'I told you so!'. And no trying to influence the deal between now and then. Kay?"

beth · 03-24-2003, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scarmig
How about:

"I'll make you a deal. Can't lose. You believe what you want to believe. I'll believe what I want to believe. And if you're right, you get to say 'I told you so!'. And no trying to influence the deal between now and then. Kay?"

I think this is more appropriate for your mother. Also, you might just want to delete it and ignore it if it comes from her, after all, she is your mom and most of the time when a kid holds a different view than the parent, they just see it as rebellion.

Shake · 03-25-2003, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blondegoddess
I think this is more appropriate for your mother. Also, you might just want to delete it and ignore it if it comes from her, after all, she is your mom and most of the time when a kid holds a different view than the parent, they just see it as rebellion.

I'm not sure whether this response was aimed at scarmig, whom you quoted in your last post, or me, since it was my mom who sent the offending godspam in the op.

If you meant me, I must first say that at 33, I'm no kid, and I doubt she'll see it as rebellion at this point. I'm old enough and smart enough to make up my own mind on things, and I think mom realizes that. Yes, I usually do just delete the offensive stuff, but it gets old, and by not saying anything, how will anyone know to not send you more? Sure, I know some will take it as an opportunity to try to "save" me if I reply with how I really feel. But I think I'd rather have people know how I feel.

beth · 03-25-2003, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shake
I'm not sure whether this response was aimed at scarmig, whom you quoted in your last post, or me, since it was my mom who sent the offending godspam in the op.

If you meant me, I must first say that at 33, I'm no kid, and I doubt she'll see it as rebellion at this point. I'm old enough and smart enough to make up my own mind on things, and I think mom realizes that. Yes, I usually do just delete the offensive stuff, but it gets old, and by not saying anything, how will anyone know to not send you more? Sure, I know some will take it as an opportunity to try to "save" me if I reply with how I really feel. But I think I'd rather have people know how I feel.

I quoted Scarmig because I thought his response was appropriate and respectful. Maybe you have a different kind of relationship with your mother, but at twenty-nine, I am still not allowed to be contradictory to my mother. If I am contradictory to her, she acts as if I am just being rebellious. Maybe things are different with men.

scarmig · 03-25-2003, 07:58 AM

I'm not too far over thirty, and my relationship with my mother consists of the advice I posted. It was instigated by god-spam she sent to me and my wife. Normally I deleted the stuff, but it pissed my wife off so much she "Replied to All". At that point I decided to wiegh in on my wife's side and support her. The end result is that my mother cut way back on the godspam (not cut out, completely though), she fully realizes what I meant when I said "I don't believe" and we do not talk about religion any more.

I've found that age has little to do with maturity, and some relationships never mature beyond a certain point, regardless of the ages of the participants.

Godless Dave · 03-25-2003, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blondegoddess
Maybe you have a different kind of relationship with your mother, but at twenty-nine, I am still not allowed to be contradictory to my mother. If I am contradictory to her, she acts as if I am just being rebellious. Maybe things are different with men.

I think it's more about religious and cultural background than gender. I can't imagine my parents even using the term "rebellious" to describe something I've done as an adult (I'm 32). While I'm sure they have disapproved of some things I've done, or not done, because they are concerned about my financial well-being, health, and happiness, they haven't said "boo" to me about any of it. Now that I'm an adult they let me make my own mistakes. They treat my sister (31) the same way.

But I have heard of other families, usually fundy or conservative Catholic families, where offspring are treated like children well into adulthood. I've heard of women in their 20s who still lived with their parents because the parents forbade them from getting their own apartment! Totally foreign to my experience but it sounds like you might come from a similar background.

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03-19-2003, 08:36 AM	#2
simian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 1,924	I think this exact spam has been addressed before. I would make it a point that the prayer before the football games was done by Southern Baptists to bash the Catholics and Mormons in the community. I don't have the link handy, but it was the Sante Fe School District in TX. The prayer was very specifically used to marginalize those not Southern Baptist in the community. Surprise, surprise, the ACLU helped the Christians (well, not the "true" Christians, but the Catholics and Mormons). Ah, the ACLU has something on it here: http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty...4&c=139&Type=s Simian

03-24-2003, 08:40 AM	#4
Proxima Centauri Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: England, the EU. Posts: 2,403	I think Christians should be free to pray, in places like Churches. American Christians should be free to pledge allegance to One Nation Under, 'God', in places like Churches. British Christians should be free to pray that, 'God' save the Queen, in places like Churches. Religious practices should not be forced onto Non-Christians outside Churches. Despite the above Americans need to be careful that you don't offend the Believers too much and cause a backlash. You must decide how far to take this. I don't know on my side of the Atlantic.

03-24-2003, 10:10 AM	#5
scarmig Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 689	How about: "I'll make you a deal. Can't lose. You believe what you want to believe. I'll believe what I want to believe. And if you're right, you get to say 'I told you so!'. And no trying to influence the deal between now and then. Kay?"

03-25-2003, 07:58 AM	#9
scarmig Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 689	I'm not too far over thirty, and my relationship with my mother consists of the advice I posted. It was instigated by god-spam she sent to me and my wife. Normally I deleted the stuff, but it pissed my wife off so much she "Replied to All". At that point I decided to wiegh in on my wife's side and support her. The end result is that my mother cut way back on the godspam (not cut out, completely though), she fully realizes what I meant when I said "I don't believe" and we do not talk about religion any more. I've found that age has little to do with maturity, and some relationships never mature beyond a certain point, regardless of the ages of the participants.

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