Amos

The need to form a new religion was based on the fact too many Jews died after being called into the promised land. Jesus stated, I think, that he died for the Children of Israel to showed them how to mature and become fully Isreal. Hence his final words "follow me."

So they knew exactly what they were doing and if the mythology is for the survival/prosperity of the tribe they obviously did it right.

The fabrication only appears to exist because you don't see the reality behind the myth. From the OT the Jews can become like Jesus and await the first coming of Christ in their own life and from the NT Catholics can become like Jesus and await the second coming of Christ in their own life.

Sojourner553

Excuse me, have you considered: Maybe "YOU" are the one not seeing the fabrication, the myth??

Adherents of all religions always FEEL their way has to be true. That includes Moonies, also Muslims who fly airplanes into buildings. The intensity of their religious feelings is probably even STRONGER than yours.

I only mention this because Jamie SPECIFICALLY asked not to have a religious response to her question.

I know if a poster asked specifically for a religious viewpoint, I would not answer out of courtesy (or else I would try and provide a religious response).

Did you miss that point? If so, that's ok -- everyone makes mistakes.

But if you chose to ignore her wishes, I don't think that speaks very highly of your religious principles!

Sojourner

spin

s553:
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Paul is the guy who fused the historical Jesus with the mystery religions.
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Paul didn't need a historical Jesus (what ever that might be) to develop his flavour of messianic Jewish religion. There is a long development of the wisdom saviour, from speculations on the creation and the divine wind leading to the wisdom (the breath/wind/word) of god being there at creation and through whom creation was performed to wisdom walking the streets. (John's Christ in the introduction comes from that tradition.)

Philo tells us of a Jewish word (logos) -- coming from Platonic philosophy. Paul knew Philo's work.

The name "Jesus" is eventually derived from a name Jehoshu`a, Yah saves. The name itself is food for being derived as the name of the saviour who comes from Yah to save.

Who needs a historical Jesus for Paul to develop his brand of religion?

spin

Jamie_L,

I think all religions have had a few primary tasks:

1) to explain how we got here;

2) how the world came to be;

3) reassure people; and

4) keep people in their place.

(It may be hard to say how conscious #4 is, but probably must be dealt with on a case to case basis.)

Science fulfils the first two now. Society attempts to fulfil the second two.

Vorkosigan

Originally posted by Sojourner553:
Excuse me, have you considered: Maybe "YOU" are the one not seeing the fabrication, the myth??

Sojourner, Amos is our very own prophet, our delphic oracle, our Dworkin in the dungeon, a sybil in our digital Cumae.

When Amos speaks, quiet meditation is called for. This can be facilitated by counting from 1 to 10 under one's breath....

Michael

Toto

I only noted that the Slavonic (Old Russian) text is univerally considered to be a medieval forgery. Most of the scholars who consider the evidence for Jesus' existence do not even bother to discuss it, except to note that it is a forgery. Hoffman wrote in 1985, and I don't know when that judgment became universal.

I have seem some very interesting speculation that Jesus was originally a revolutionary leader, and later Christians covered this up and sucked up to the Roman authorities. (Maybe someone can find that old thread.) Any evidence of this was probably obliterated in 70 CE.

Haran

Don't you mean John (of John's Gospel) and not Paul? I'm not sure that Paul's works express quite the same Philonic "logos" concept. Moreover, it is not obvious to me that John (or Paul) actually knew Philo's work.

Haran

Koyaanisqatsi

Well, most of you know my take on this, but just to add it into the soup, I personally think that the myth of Jesus (aka, the passion narrative) was Roman propaganda, written and distributed right at the time of the first major attempts to wipe out the Jews from the area.

All invading nations start by destroying and supplanting the indigenous religions, beliefs, rituals, etc., any way possible (our own ignoble American Indian genocide is a perfect example).

The Romans would have already known about all of the factions in the area and recognized the indigenous people to be extremely superstitious. The NT teaches nothing but Roman ideas, including many pagan rituals.

It teaches slavery and subservience directly to two forms of authority: the Romans and the nebulous Great Big Fear in the sky, which is, of course, nothing more than an abstraction of Roman (aka, dictatorial) authority.

It preys upon the central core of Judaism by providing what all Jews are waiting for; their Messiah.

It goes to tremendous lengths to link itself to the Old Testament, but in ways that no Jewish scholar would ever do. The inept and tenuous links, indeed, are discussed here over and over and over again. We that see them are astounded that the christian cult members cannot recognize that the character of Jesus has fulfilled not a single one of the OT Messianic prophecies, just as I personally know my Jewish friends likewise state.

The NT is overtly anti-Jewish (not necessarily anti-Semitic, a subtle but salient point) while being deliberately and illogically pro-Roman right at the time of the Roman wars against the Jews.

In short, it is a textbook study in Nation-State propaganda, designed, I feel, deliberately to undermine indigenous belief structures prior to and in accordance with Roman pogroms.

There was probably a Jesus cult (based on the Q material) that was popular enough among the more radical Jews and most likely a Rabbi named Jesus who was crucified by the Romans for sedition that Roman propaganda artists forty years later aggrandized and expanded upon (just as America did with Noriega and Hussein and Lon Nol, ad infinitum) and the poison was inflicted throughout the more "civilized" nations, starting with Greece, in an attempt to destroy or supplant Judaism from within.

Let me put it this way, had Roman intelligence ministers come to me and asked me what I would have done to destabilize the region prior to any wars, it would have been the NT word for word.

And, of course, we don't need to go into the fact that the Roman Empire never died. It became the Holy Roman Empire and it's still the most powerful Nation-State in the world, since it no longer has any borders and its Caesar is now, finally, God (aka, the Pope).

To any detractors (and there have been quite a few), I would only state that the victors write the history and we all know who the victors were.

[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

Amos

spin

Haran,

It has been a long time since I have dealt with NT stuff, but I remember that there are a number of concepts in Paul that find their similarities in Philo.

One must remember that Philo was the most famous diaspora Jew of his era, even representing Alexandrian Jews with a embassy to Gaius Caesar Caligula in Rome. It would be a little hard for Paul not to know of Philo nor his works.