Lobstrosity

Why? How do you have any idea what the odds would be? Why is this specific byproduct any less likely than any other potential byproduct?

Let's try to take a look at this from an objective, scientific standpoint. First we must concede that dreaming is a very poorly-understood phenomenon. From the standpoint of evolution, the whole idea of sleep makes no sense. Think about it--there's a significant portion of your life you spend wholely inactive and highly succeptible to danger. When you sleep you're not out finding a mate, you're not out gathering food, you're not caring for your young, etc. On top of this, you're in an incredibly vulnerable position. Would it not stand to reason that a creature that is active 24/7 could out-compete one who is only active 14/7? Obviously sleep must serve some vital function.

It's a common myth that we sleep to replenish our energy or some other such nonsense, but this cannot be anywhere near the whole truth. If it was, we could just as effectively "replenish our energy" by lying in bed awake but motionless for eight hours. Obviously this is not sufficient. It seems sleep's primary impact is on neurological functioning; sleep is the price we pay for having brains. This idea is bolstered by the fact that nearly every organism with a brain sleeps (at least as far as I know). On top of this, dreaming seems to be a key component of the sleeping process. When mice are deprived of REM sleep for long periods of time they suffer brain damage. If the deprivation goes long enough, the mice die. Brain damage has also been observed in humans who have been deprived of sleep for very long periods of time. Psychological studies into the effect of REM sleep demonstrate it to be vital to sound cognative functioning. If test subjects are allowed to sleep the whole night through but are woken every time they enter REM sleep, they will awake the next day to feel wholely unrested. The following night they will actually experience REM rebound, dreaming longer and (I believe) more frequently. Dream deprivation can actually lead to halucinations, where the brain enters a dream state while you are awake (remember that Star Trek: TNG episode where the crew is unable to dream?).

In short, dreaming has a clear demonstrable impact on our physical brains that goes well beyond showing us mere vivid scenery. It is my belief that dreaming is simply the way we perceive some self-regulatory process our brains must undergo in order to maintain themselves. I don't think we dream so that we can learn more about ourselves by looking deep within our subconscious. I don't think we dream because it's a fun thing to do or because some external unphysical brain-supplement wishes to give us pretty pictures. If that was all dreaming was, REM deprivation would have little impact.



It shouldn't be that hard to see. Mentally-ill patients can suffer delusions and halucinations so real that they don't even know they're halucinating. Drugs can cause halucinations that seem real. Both of these sources of vivid fantasy are rooted solely within our physical brains, so why couldn't dreams, whatever they are, simply do the same sort of thing?

Elvithriel

Frankly, I don't care anymore.

He reminds me of everything we have learned in the last 500 years and how people still believe in this kind of thing.

What is even worse then that is what happens when your prove their "power" bogus. They still cling to it (Must have been an off day, your Dark Arts interupted my brain waves... ect).

Depressing.

Wounded King

Yeah, that depressive effect scientists have on psychic powers is a sod right enough!

Anti-Materialist

Elvithriel - you are just being rude.

I am absolutely committed to being honest with myself. If a concept holds up under debate, then I will keep it. If it does not hold up under scrutiny, then I will reject it.

I enjoy exploring crazy concepts such as this. I am absolutely committed to being honest about their validity. Insults accomplish nothing. The purpose of forums such as this is to discuss exactly these sorts of crazy ideas - and to tear them apart if they do not hold up under analysis.

This is a good process. This is how we ponder crazy stuff. Plus, it's fun. What do you gain by ranting most snottily?

I'd love to debate the existence of paranormal phenomenon with you - just because it is a fun topic to discuss. But turning nasty will not accomplish anything positive.

Anti-Materialist

And another thing...

My tarot cards told me that the Amazing Randi is due to lose his million bucks this coming thursday....

Anti-Materialist

and yet another thing...

If you act like a whiny five year old child towards me again, I shall say "Ni" to you at least five times in a row. I am descended from a long line of knights who say "Ni", and am quite good saying "Ni" when duty calls.

So - don't say I didn't warn you

Shadowy Man

Most of the bad ones did too.

Anti-Materialist

Yes...

That is what is so great about discussion forums. It is a good place to shoot down bad ideas. However - one good idea is worth a million bad ones - just so long as you are careful to stop the bad ideas in their tracks - and are equally as careful to make sure you encourage the good ideas to rise to the top.

Anti-Materialist

All right - I am done pondering...

I think I understand the objection to my original posting. I will rephrase it, in order to make sure it is accurrate:

Object recognition is very very difficult. It takes tremendous processing power to recognize an object - far more processing power than it takes to simply generate the image of that object. Our brains are designed to handle high speed object recognition.

Dream images are generated by the same mechanisms that handle high speed object recognition. This is not just a coincidental byproduct, this is very much related byproduct. In order for the brain to handle object oriented pattern recognition, it must be be able to process objects rapidly. Part of this process results in dreaming - in which already stored objects are integrated into already stored backgrounds.

Yes - I must admit this makes perfect sense. This would provide a perfectly valid explanation for why dreaming, and other internal virtual reality experiences such as out-of-body experiences or drug induced "trips" is possible.

I very much appreciate your helping me think this through. Now I am at least a little less skeptical of the current materialistic worldview. However - I've got like about 10 million of these sorts of arguments to throw up - and if even one of them holds up under scrutiny, then the materialistic world view will still seem foolish to me. Well - in part foolish, at least.

Not nearly so foolish as the religious fundamentalist worldview. I really really pissed some guys off over on another discussion board - all because I said that I simply cannot accept that a kind and just God would create a system that involves torture in Hell for eternity. Somehow, kind and just don't work very well with eternal torture - call it a gut feeling.

Yours with hope,

Jonathan

Jinto

Jinto: "It."