sullster

I have very much enjoyed all the postings from Southerners. It really seems to be a part of the US that makes a lasting impression on those who live there.
I do agree that us Northerners, especially New England, don't understand the South. It seems alien to us and hostile. My interest in history colors my conclusions about the South with a 19th century shade.
The issue of violence is one that has been brought up a few times. How does the violence mesh with the religiosity in the South? Would there be more violence if there was less religiosity, or less violence?

I am asking you Southerners if you think that fundamentalism causes or lessens the stresses leading to the violence of which you speak? Is there a hidden fist behind the praying hands?

sighhswolf

I think that there is a fundamental difference in what you as a New Englander classify as violence
and what deep south good ole boys classify as violence.
In my travels throughout New England I was never aware of people having weapons in their homes.
If they did have weapons, they were not on display
even the "hunters" that I knew in Maine.
Part of southern culture and in the west, has always included a love for firearms.
Rifles, shotguns, hand guns...and a deep seeded
opinion that a persons property and family must be protected at all costs. Again this mental attitude is and was born of a rural existence.
A way of life that required protection be given to home and family, from outsiders, but from wild life as well. Consider the fact that most northern industrialized population centers had fairly large police forces even prior to 1900.
In the south and midwest there was usually one sheriff to cover thousands of square miles of territory, so if you did not take care of your own, no one would.
And the South historically has been home to hunters and explorers, people who have pushed the expansion of the country in a very large way.
Frontiersmen, mercenaries, and just plain old desperado's running from the authorities.
After the civil war there were many criminals running from the authorities all over the south and the western states, considered criminals by the federal government, but considered hero's by their contempories.
The old adage still holds here, "You can take my gun, when you pry it from my cold dead hand."
And not before.............
"You can cuss my wife, you can crap on my lawn, you can badmouth my kids, and you can call me any
name you want....but dont even think about takin my guns."
There are still honkeytonk joints in the south that have signs above the door saying, " If'n ya dont have a gun, we'll rent ya one cheap for the night."
All kidding aside though, I laugh at our culture at times, because it is so stereotypical.
Honestly I dont think that religion has any real effect on the violent nature of some southerners.
It's more "in-breeding" than "god-fearin".
I still maintain that the church in the south is
the social contact system that allows everyone to make affiliations regardless of economic status.
As you pass through the doors of the church, you leave the affluence outside.
This is the only place where everyone is considered to be on equal terms financially and socially, so it is a necessary tool for social contacts in the south, and believe me more deals are made in the church yard while someone smokes a butt, than in the offices of the deal brokers.
Just one southerners opinion though.....I personally would be very pleased to see a complete and total end to organized religion everywhere.
Wolf

AJ the greek

Wow. A "thread on fire" icon, I am flattered and honored.

Thought I'd chime back in.

South vs. Rural: There is a big difference. I have lived in rural south and rural north. Those in the south actually care what church you go to. Whatever the reason, they want to know. Probably just a culture/social thing, who knows?

Civil War offshoot topic: The south was demonized by Lincoln to fire up the troops, but surely Stonewall and Robert E Lee did the same. Personally I think if a state chooses to join the USA, they may "unchoose" as well. But history shows different I guess. My preference would have been(as a northerner) to have allowed the south to form its own pathetic, slave-owning, racist piece of crap country. Who knows, maybe they would have allowed the black vote and true black freedom sooner than 1965, when the US was able to accomplish these things.

NRA/Guns: I am a proud yankee gun owner, but the laws here disallow carry on a gun rack. Ah, well. I think its just more open, but there are a lot of guns up north too, thats for sure. Can't generalize too much in this area.

I think someone here basically got where I was coming from on the 'car tag' religion. Its a badge to wear around, whether on a Benz or a Ford. Not always what it appears, but where I come from Baptists have a certain reputation, so its humorous to see these things on high-end cars. Just doesn't "fit".

For a good discussion of religion in the South see Ed Babinski on the II Library, very interesting history.
<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_babinski/experience.html" target="_blank">web page</a>

Aside: My sister told me once that her next door neighbor was atheist and on the computer alot. Delta Pilot's wife. Anyone around here fit that description?

[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: AJ the greek ]</p>

Pangea

I don't think religion is so much the cause of violence in the south but I think a lot of people use religion to justify their bigotry/attitudes/etc. IME, most people are the sweet little old lady types who bring casseroles and shit to your house. Sometimes I come home and there will be bags of peanuts or green beans on my porch. Stuff like that.

The scary ones are the hard core baptists and pentacostals, the more vocal charismatics with their tent revivals. That's where you are more likely to find the extremists. Like I seem to recall a story in the last year or so with a husband and wife who died while handling poisonous snakes at a revival. Neither here not there but appalling nonetheless. I think those are the types who are more likely to get justification and motivation for their hate from god/bible/whatever. If you can convince them it is god's will, they will do anything.

What really scares me are the white nationalist types that you can't recognize on sight. At least the baptist lets you know they are baptist with there cross necklaces and honk if you love jesus sticker but I know for a fact that there are more than a few people here who hate me because of my yellow skin and almond eyes, who hate everyone that is not white and that scares me. (There is actually a bar close to where I grew up that has a black man's head stuffed and mounted on the wall, it's a mask but the implication is pretty fucking clear) The fact that I never really know if that heating and air guy or the floor tile guy or the fucking cable man are the sort who hang out at this bar is disturbing to me. That they could be making a note of my address or something scares me, so. . . I have an 85 lbs pit bull and guns.

I have guns in my home. They are not on display and they are locked up. I am a young woman whose husband works out of town a lot. I am home alone often. I have been attacked twice in my life. (Believe it or not, a cheap butterfly knife my brother gave me when I was 13 saved my life at 15. The other time did not go so well in my favor but I did survive and only regret that I did not have a gun on me at the time.) I know others around me have guns.

I do not forsee any event in the near future when I would need a gun but you know what they say, better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have one. There are too many what ifs and I don't have enough faith in the local PD to protect and serve me when I need it so I will take the matter of my own personal protection into my own hands as is my right as a citizen of this country.

ohwilleke

The boundary between rural south and rural north is more distinct than you might expect, a bit like the boundary between neighborhoods in a big city.

I grew up just North of Cincinnati, in the geographically largest school district in Ohio, where the big divide was between rural kids and kids from the college town in the area. The rural areas may have been physically North of the Mason-Dixon line, but it was cuturally (if not quite linguistically) rural south.

I have relatives who are farmers in Northern Ohio, went to college just South of Cleveland, and had a girlfriend (who became my wife) in Western New York, so I drove from Southern Ohio to Northern Ohio on a regular basis for at least a decade. The dividing line is approximately through the State Capital, Columbus which is in the dead center of Ohio. South of the line, rural people are basically Southern in culture. North of the line, people are remarkably different in culture and sensibilities -- more like a Vermont or Massachussets farmer, than a Tennessee farmer.

A similar North-South divide in rural culture crosses Indiana, with that line probably running a bit north of Muncie. I also know from experience that rural places in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan and the Dakotas basically lack Southern culture. (It isn't gun free, rural people in these areas hunt, e.g., and is hardly sophsticated, but is very different in attitude from the South).

ImGod

I was lucky to grow up in a rural area of Nebraska that was comprised of mainly German and Czechoslovakian descendents. So the culture of my area was almost entirely based on beer drinking.

I still miss the beer leagues that played at the church softball fields. They gave out trophies to the winner of the tournament and to the team that drank the most.

Now, back to your more enlightened discussion.

sullster

Thanks Wolf for another of your insightful postings. Perhaps the issue between North and South with regards to violence is the percieved threat of it. The rifle in the rack or the carried pistol in the South gives a signal to strangers that one will use violence to defend oneself and thus this creates a feeling of impending violence.

Up here in the North, there are very many dangerous places and dangerous people, yet the obvious threat of violence is not always there. Do us Northerners live in a dream world of sorts? Don't know.

Pangea, you show the dark side of the threat of violence. The violence you fear is the type motivated by hate and fear. The fact that you say you are armed, backs up Wolf's analysis of the rural culture with little or no police. Your situation could be the same here in NE, yet in these parts we wouldn't want to accept that someone would have to arm themselves.

I agree with what I percieve to be Pangera's point about religious extremists. If I am correct, she is saying that the passions unleashed by tent revivals and such could lead to violence. The much vaunted moral system of christianity has been known to be rejected during the heat of religious passion. History tells the story. The link between extreme religion and violence is a real thing to fear.

Elbereth

"The sign said, 'Jesus is the answer.' Which is kinda weird, since my question was 'What the hell's this stuff on my sandwich?'"
- Phil Bacon
from Ruminations at topfive.com

Ahhh... the south, with a church on every street corner, so true. Of course, I grew up in Florida, so I don't think that counts with the rest of this discussion.

Shake

There was a whole thread about what the question is on the humor forum some time ago. It was quite amusing!

Most of my time in the military was spent in Charleston, which is kind of South-lite, due to the large current and former military population who are from all over the country. We used to joke that all of the people we knew there weren't from there! Also, I just wanted to add that I've heard that Asheville (home of the beautiful Biltmore Estate - go there if you're anywheres close by), has quite a large population of Wiccans and other pagans. It's sort of a gathering place for other non-Xians. Kinda like a secret hideout behind enemy lines. (not to imply that Xians are enemies - just misinformed - or as someone else one said, they're pre-atheists)

Doug

As a native Texan, I'll chime in with one coment about fundamentalism in the South and education and income levels.

Perhaps the roots of fundamentalism in the South can be found in the rural, uneducated and poor masses, but these days this is not he case. Any large metropolitan area in the South (and I'm including Texas here) has massive fundamentalist churches in wealthy neighborhoods full of people with degrees from US News Tier 1 universities. That dog (rural, poor uneducated Southerners) don't hunt, as a famous Southern President once said.

On top of that, places like Texas, North Carolina and Atlanta have had 30 years of a massive influx of people from the Northern states and fundamentalism is stronger than ever, especially in the large metropolitan areas.

I'll also agree with the poster from Atlanta and UGA that talked about large numbers of more enlightened folks in the big cities of the South. I could take you to large neighborhoods in places like Dallas, Atlanta and Houston that are as liberal as any I've seen here in New York, however there seems to be this strange conservative, religious hold over the suburban areas of these cities.

I will say that religion doesn't seem to be as important here in New York in an evangelical way, although ritually it still is (especially Jewish and Catholic traditions).

Why does fundamentalist Christianity remain so big in the South? Good question. Tradition is part of it so the roots must be considered. Why this remains so is kind of a mystery to me personally. I would argue that especially in the big Southern cities there is almost a polarization going on between liberalism and conservatism and religious and non-religious. You rarely find anyone there that sits in the middle either politically or religiously.