Synaesthesia

Yes.

Regards,
Synaesthesia

Ierrellus

Most of the threads I have posted in this forum concern evolution via genetic continuity as a proper subject for philosophical debate. Yet a sizeable number of postings respond with the problem of knowablity as it exists in the human brain, which is only the latest example of a heritage of evolutionary successes.

Does any one here believe in evolution as an historical development with species' retention of the best genetic traits for adaptability to environments? Does anyone believe that the traits retained in surviving organisms have some accurate reference to any environment? Would not these admissions of belief at least bring into question such assertions as subject/object dichotomy or the impossiblity of knowing what could be the subjective state of a non-human animal?

Geeze, I might as well opt for creationism!

Ierrellus

PAX

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Ierrellus ]</p>

snatchbalance

Ierrellus,

IMO, creatures that have a "limbic system" of one sort or another, can share common emotional and sensory experiences. Do I have a way to "prove" it, experimentally, well not by some standards.

But can I point to a dog in pain, and can we recognise that it is in pain(it's not fakeing)? Yes.

SB

Ierrellus

snatchbalance,

May the force be with you!
A Feb. article in NATURE reveals a genetic-evolutionary discovery. The Hox gene, which seems to supervise several other genes, if defective in crustacians, diminishes that organism's number of legs. The creationists' rebuttal of the finding is that all you get is a "crippled crustacian". The evolutionists' response is that less legs is on the way to being an insect.

Thanks for your response.


Ierrellus,
PAX

tronvillain

snatchbalance:
It may be that creatures that have a "limbic system" of one sort of another do share some common emotional and sensory experiences, while at the same time differing in some emotional and sensory experiences. Still, to say that they can share such experiences implies that they can communicated, which is a seperate issue.

To claim that it is "faking" would be ridiculous, but that is not the same as claiming that it is not experiencing exactly what we experience when we are in pain. Personally, I doubt that there are any significant differences with respect to pain though.

Oh, and Ierrellus? There were a few discussions of that article in the evolution forum a while back.

snatchbalance

Tron,

Like I've said many times, subjective experience is just that. I can't feel what you're feeling, and you can't feel what I'm feeling.

But, if my dog growls at me to keep me away from his bone, well, if that's not communication, I don't know what is.

How might that differ from when my GF tells me to keep my fork out of her plate.

In both cases, I sure get the message.

SB

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: snatchbalance ]</p>

tronvillain

None of which really has anything to do with the discussion, so I am not sure why you mention it.

snatchbalance

Tron,

How can one have an idea if 2 beings are capable of having similar experience if one does not observe the associated behavior? Are not forms of communication forms of behavior?

So you see, they're not seperate issues.

SB

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: snatchbalance ]</p>

Ierrellus

Tron,
Welcome back!
I think snatchbalance and I are saying the same thing regarding communication. Unless you and I have some sensory data deciphering mechanism that can establish some sense of identity between what you perceive and what I perceive, we would be
unable to communicate at all.

Ierrellus
PAX

tronvillain

snatchbalance:
One may have no idea if beings have similar experiences, and similar behaviors are not necessarily indicative of similar experiences. Whether there are common experiences is a seperate issue from whether common experiences can be communicated. A shark may have experiences in common with you, but it totally unable to communicate anything about them to you (though you may be able to learn something about them by other means).

Ierellus:
Establishing a sense of identity between what you and I percieve does not mean that you and I percieve the same things. Oh, I think we probably have a lot in common, but I was discussing humans/bats earlier, not humans/humans. Oh, and communication does necessarily require any such thing, at least not "communication" on the level of a dog growling.