Freethought & Rationalism Archive

joedad · 03-30-2003, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MaximusDementis
Well, if the true believers are killing off all non-believers, then natural selection had selected the believers. Those who didn't go along with the local shaman were killed or exiled, reducing their chances of passing on their genes to the next generation. So basically we self-selected to be idiots, because it was good for the group. Working as a tribe insured survival.......what do you think?

Basically, I think you're right on. The best I've heard it stated is that we are emotional creatures that also think.

That atheism has been historically "selected against" I accept as fact. Religion is institutionalized superstition, so conversely, superstition has been "selected for," or, maybe it just got here first a very long time ago.

Quantifying a difference or differences between the brains of atheists and non atheists would be interesting indeed.

Good thread.

joe

Gurdur · 03-31-2003, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by joedad
.....

Quantifying a difference or differences between the brains of atheists and non atheists would be interesting indeed.

And if you or anyone else manages that feat, i.e. you or anyone else can show a substantive, solid difference in brains between theists and atheists, I'll not only eat my hat, I'll also pay you $ 100. (*)

As far as I can see (having delved into this topic at quite some length for quite a while), what you will find is:

There are some personality differences between atheists as a whole and theists (or better said, between outspoken atheists and the rest of the population).
However, these differences are fairly insignificant in the broad picture, and most importantly do not acoount for adopting theism or atheism.
You will of course find differences in brain activity between someone undergoing a powerful "spiritual" experience (of whatever source) and a control case.
So what ?
Still doesn't account for religion as a whole.
You will of course in temporal-lobe seizure cases find both brain activity differences and often also biochemical/anatomical differences.
So what again; they're a tiny minority, and do not explain religion.
And you can induce a "spiritual" experience through special meditation exercises.
Again, doesn't prove anything, since the majority of religious types don't seem to bother.

________

(*)I can afford $ 100, and am realistic. But no way do I think I'll lose my $ 100 on this.

ps418 · 03-31-2003, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ice
I have to find a link to an article I read in Scientific American or Nature a few months ago. Scientists found that we are genetically wired to "search" for something "higher than ourselves". Some have used this to prove that a higher being, ie, God exists, which is why seeking him is encoded in our brains. Others simply conclude this is inconclusive and in no way proves the existence of God. I simply think this is 'encoded' spirituality.

I follow the literature on this subject pretty closely, and have seen no evidence that humans are "genetically wired" specifically to search for a "higher something." Can you find the link you are referring to?

Patrick

ps418 · 03-31-2003, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ice
Here's another relevant link:

http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/story1a122302.html

Nothing in that article supports the view that we are genetically predisposed to search for a higher something. Rhawn Joseph comes close to making an argument when he says:

Quote:

"You don't develop a brain structure to help you experience something that doesn't exist. . . "

Thats simply nonsense. He's referring to the amgydala and the rest of the limbic system. These structures are one of the most primitive portions of the nervous system, and serve many functions. It certainly did not evolve for in order to allow H. sapiens to experience God, even though they are involved in mystical experiences. That argument makes about as much sense as saying that the left middle fusiform gyrus (or whatever) evolved in order for Charles Bonnet Syndrome patients and schizophrenics to hallucinate faces! Just because a brain region is involved in the particular kind of experience does not mean it evolved for that purpose, or that the thing experienced has any kind of objective existence. Particularly when those regions are known to sertve myriad other functions.

Patrick

Ice · 03-31-2003, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ps418
I follow the literature on this subject pretty closely, and have seen no evidence that humans are "genetically wired" specifically to search for a "higher something." Can you find the link you are referring to?

Patrick

Hey Pat, forgive me if I cannot find the article (I searched last night for over an hour) - not trying to make any unsubstantiated claims, but if I remember correctly I read that article in either Scientific American and Nature (can't be Popular Science or Discover, even though I read them) some time between October 2002 and January 2003 (should 2002 - only widened it just in case).

I'll see if I can find print copies to check.

ps418 · 03-31-2003, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ice
Hey Pat, forgive me if I cannot find the article (I searched last night for over an hour) - not trying to make any unsubstantiated claims, but if I remember correctly I read that article in either Scientific American and Nature (can't be Popular Science or Discover, even though I read them) some time between October 2002 and January 2003 (should 2002 - only widened it just in case).

I'll see if I can find print copies to check.

No problem, Ice. Just let me know if you happen to find it.

Patrick

MadKally · 03-31-2003, 06:58 AM

Quote:

originally posted by MadKally:
Gurdur, could you please point me in the direction of past studies of temporal lobe epilepsy? I'm looking, sorry to bother you.

Evidently you didn't see my question. This is from crazyfiners link in the OP. The article from the BBC is dated March 20, 2003.

Quote:

Professor VS Ramachandran, of the University of California in San Diego, believed that the temporal lobes of the brain were key in religious experience. He felt that patients like Rudi and Gwen could provide important evidence linking the temporal lobes to religious experience.

So he set up an experiment to compare the brains of people with and without temporal lobe epilepsy. He decided to measure his patients' changes in skin resistance, essentially measuring how much they sweated when they looked at different types of imagery.

What Professor Ramachandran discovered to his surprise was that when the temporal lobe patients were shown any type of religious imagery, their bodies produced a dramatic change in their skin resistance.

The activity of specific neural circuits makes these patients more prone to religious belief

Prof VS Ramachandran, University of California
"We found to our amazement that every time they looked at religious words like God, they'd get a huge galvanic skin response."

This was the very first piece of clinical evidence revealing that the body's response to religious symbols was definitely linked to the temporal lobes of the brain.

"What we suggested was that there are certain circuits within the temporal lobes which have been selectively activated in these patients and somehow the activity of these specific neural circuits makes them more prone to religious belief."

Scientists now believe famous religious figures in the past could also have been sufferers from the condition. St Paul and Moses appear to be two of the most likely candidates.

Do you know of any older studies done on temporal lobe epilepsy with a connection to religion? I am not saying anyone is right or wrong. Just curious. I can't seem to find any. You should be able to help me find something.

Kally

Gurdur · 03-31-2003, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ps418

Nothing in that article supports the view that we are genetically predisposed to search for a higher something. ....

hmmm, I have a couple of small quibbles with that, but on the whole I think you've hit the nail on the head.

THIEST: The brain evolved to experience god because God exists

ATHEIST: The brain evolved to experience a non-existent God because somehow it's magically selected for.

(atheist) SKEPTIC: huh ? What about people who change sides from atheism to theism to atheism ?
Do they have evolved switching brains ?
What about the historical development of religions ?
Why do mysticism and religion so often have hostile relations to each other ?
How do you envisage the very first evolutionary beginnings if you think it's only hardwired ?

THEIST: Calvin has revealed to us that only some are chosen by God, therefore only some can experience him.
I will not answer your other questions because I am above such trivial nitpicking,

ATHEIST: I am a more-evolved being and brain, therefore I do not experience such illusions as God.
I will not answer your other questions because I am above such trivial nitpicking,

(atheist) SKEPTIC: huh ? Can either of you prove any of this ?

THEIST: Critical ungodly bastard

ATHEIST: Critical bastard who won't play along

MadKally · 03-31-2003, 10:00 AM

Gurdur,

I had a feeling you would ignore me. Why? it's still a mystery to me. We were friends. We talked on the phone.

Ignored X 2 in this thread. Maybe you don't need to speak to certain people (not just me) You seem to know everything about everything these days. What happened?

Kally

ps418 · 03-31-2003, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadKally

Do you know of any older studies done on temporal lobe epilepsy with a connection to religion? I am not saying anyone is right or wrong. Just curious. I can't seem to find any. You should be able to help me find something.

Kally

I have seen a few articles on TLE and 'mystical states.' The following is (mostly) recycled from old II posts (which is why it is disjointed). You could also do a pubmed search for Persinger, M, although I think Persinger oversells the TL as a general explanation of religious belief.

Wilder Penfield conducted many electrical stimulation experiments, and induced many phenomena, such as vivid visual memories, music, tastes, and so on. One patient exclaimed "Oh god, I am leaving my body" following stimulation of a point on her temporal lobe (Journal of Mental Science 101 451-465, 1955, p. 458).

In addition to drugs and direct electrical stimulation, out-of-body experiences are often induced by seizures having a focus in the temporal lobe. Patients who have temporal lobe epilepsy often report OOBEs (along with religious visions, deja vu, and other phenomena), and often manifest hypereligiosity.

Devinksy reportes that in 21 patients with a known seizure focus who experienced autoscopia or OOBEs associated with seizures, 18 had a seizure focus in the temporal lobe.

Quote:

We report the cases of 10 patients with seizures and autoscopic phenomena, which include seeing one's double and out-of-body experiences, and review 33 additional cases of autoscopic seizures from the literature. Autoscopic phenomena may be symptoms of simple partial, complex partial, or generalized tonoclonic seizures. Autoscopic seizures may be more common than is recognized; we found a 6.3% incidence in the patients we interviewed. The temporal lobe was involved in 18 (86%) of the 21 patients in whom the seizure focus could be identified. There was no clear lateralization of lesions in patients with ictal autoscopy. The response of autoscopic episodes to treatment usually paralleled that of the underlying seizure disorder. Autoscopic phenomena are likely to be discovered only on specific questioning of patients with epilepsy and may be an important, distressing feature of a chronic seizure disorder.

Devinsky O, Feldmann E, Burrowes K, Bromfield E., Autoscopic phenomena with seizures. Arch Neurol 1989 Oct;46(10):1080-8.

Quote:

We report a 38 year-old patient who had temporoparietal epilepsy and unusual ictal "out of body" experiences that remained undiagnosed for more than ten years, until her admission for a motor seizure of the left hemibody. Out of body episodes were experienced as intense and ecstatic astral journeys. EEG showed a bilateral extension of epileptiform abnormalities to the parietal regions, predominantly on the right side. We discuss the various forms of heautoscopy and their putative mechanisms. We suggest that a disturbance in representing space in independent extrapersonal and personal coordinates might be as crucial as the elusive hypothesis of a body schema disorder. Combined involvement of the parietal neocortex and temporolimbic structures might allow those experiences to gain a subjective vividness which appears to be indissociable from normal conscious experiences.

Vuilleumier P, Despland PA, Assal G, Regli F.,Astral and out-of-body voyages. Heautoscopy, ecstasis and experimental hallucinations of epileptic origin. Rev Neurol (Paris) 1997 Mar;153(2):115-9

Quote:

Two hundred thirty-four epileptic patients were examined for ictus-related religious experiences. Of the 234 cases, three (1.3%) were found to have had such religious experiences. All three cases had temporal lobe epilepsy with post-ictal psychosis, while one exhibited a simple partial seizure. At the same time, interictal experiences with hyperreligiosity were recognized in all three cases. The incidence of religious experiences while in a state of post-ictal psychosis was 27.3%, which is regarded as high, indicating some influence by the religions that the patients had faith in. Patients who had ictus-related or interictal religious experiences did not believe solely in Buddhism, a traditional religion in Japan, but rather in a combination of Buddhism and Shintoism, new Christian sect, contemporary Japanese religions and/or other folk beliefs. This indicates that these experiences had some connection not only with the personality characteristic of temporal lobe epilepsy, but also with the general lack of religious conviction and activity in Japan. In addition, the cases having ictus-related religious experiences also had interictal religious experiences and an interaction was seen between them. In this paper, the importance of taking bio-psycho-social aspects into consideration is pointed out in the discussion of epilepsy and religion.

Ogata A, Miyakawa T., Religious experiences in epileptic patients with a focus on ictus-related episodes. Psychiatry Clin Neurosci 1998 Jun;52(3):321-5.

Quote:

How is it that the name of a brilliant 18th century scientist and philosopher, many of whose exceptional achievements were often advanced for his time, is almost never mentioned in the annals of science? And how did it happen that a man very deeply dedicated to the advancement of science experienced a vision that completely altered the course of his life? We suggest, based on his extensive self-analytical writings, that the source of his spiritual experiences was temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE) and that he is among the group of creative religious thinkers also suspected or known to have had epilepsy, from St. Paul and Mohammed to Dostoevsky, who have changed Western civilization.

Foote-Smith E, Smith TJ., Emanuel Swedenborg. Epilepsia 1996 Feb;37(2):211-8.

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03-31-2003, 10:00 AM	#29
MadKally Banned Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 433	Gurdur, I had a feeling you would ignore me. Why? it's still a mystery to me. We were friends. We talked on the phone. Ignored X 2 in this thread. Maybe you don't need to speak to certain people (not just me) You seem to know everything about everything these days. What happened? Kally

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