Rational BAC

Bumble Bee asks so many questions at one time------

Will try to answer the last one.

OK--- I have no idea why God does what He does. Does what I do make any sense at all to an ant?

A Supreme Being can do anything he damned well pleases you know. Why would you expect an ant to understand the will or intelligence of a human.?

And assuming, as I do that there is a Supreme Being, then all we can do in our very limited intelligence and our very limited senses is to TRY and understand the essence of a Supreme Being. Just like, I assume an ant tries to understand the essence of US.-----just before he gets squished.

Sabine Grant

Sorry to answer so late...please remember that I use Christ as my comparaison platform. Christ's teaching as I mentionned earlier being my guide. In essence, I do not legitimize " my own authority". I focus on Christ's teachings. The concept of applying Grace came with Christ. Let me just say that I consider that concept to be a healthy way to deal with others. And my own failures.

Sabine Grant

I can only echo Mageth's response that the Bible may be an attempt from man to understand God. Also an attempt at times to push for a personal agenda which resulted in controling and manipulating people. A tool to gain power and by using the authority concept behind " God said so"to muzzle the opposition.
Christ's position in terms of challenging OT Laws and their application is demonstrated in the Gospels. He brings about the balance of God's intent for mankind. He illustrates how God would want for men to treat one another.
There is nothing easy or " fuzzy" in promoting the concept of Grace. It is a constant battle against human nature which leads us to condemn and judge. It is a battle against the ego.
Where OT laws call for the stoning to death of an adulteress, Christ restores the focus on " who the heck do you think you are to condemn and judge her?". That is a strong message to mankind where we are challenged to introspect and deal with our own failures rather than focus on others'.

Sabine Grant

Salut rational BAC... I like your comparaison of the ant. I recall studying from RC Sproul " The Holiness of God" yet not being able to grasp the meaning behind the term " holiness".
However when it comes to Grace I discovered that if I apply it in own life rather than dwelling on " what is deserved" or " what is not deserved", I can eventualy gain a better understanding of the character of Grace in God thru Christ.

Sabine Grant

Bonjour Starboy...interesting question... I can only give you what applies to my own person. Because my nature as a human being does not allow me so easily to apply Grace in my life. I find Christ to be an inspiration. A motivation. An enabling element.
Agreeing with one concept of behavior is one thing... applying it is another.
Also understand that as a believer, faith is the lifeline to God which allows God to transform my nature where He wills for it to be.

Starboy

I very much doubt that. The last thing that goes through an ants brain when it is being squished is its ass. And I very much doubt that the last thing that goes throught the mind of most people when they die is trying to understand god. So much is done to dress up Christianity to make it seem noble and grand when in reality for most people it is a religion of fear.

Starboy

Starboy

Sabine, these are problems that are not unique to Christians. Everyone struggles with this no matter what their source of guidance. In this day and age to think that an invisible all powerful uberdaddy is guiding everything is just plain nonsense. To even think that it guides anyone is nonsense and to think that it guides you in particular is cause for concern for your mental health.

Starboy

Mageth

OK--- I have no idea why God does what He does. Does what I do make any sense at all to an ant?

A Supreme Being can do anything he damned well pleases you know. Why would you expect an ant to understand the will or intelligence of a human.?

And assuming, as I do that there is a Supreme Being, then all we can do in our very limited intelligence and our very limited senses is to TRY and understand the essence of a Supreme Being. Just like, I assume an ant tries to understand the essence of US.-----just before he gets squished.

I have a problem with the god/man, man/ant comparison. Ants totally lack what we would label "understanding", as far as we know. Ants, with their teeny little brains, are incapable of understanding anything. They have no concept of "man" at all. Humans, on the other hand, are capable of understanding. We do have concepts of "god". Why would one assume that there are aspects of god that humans are incapable of understanding? If god is all-powerful, couldn't he present those aspects to us in ways that could be understood?

Starboy

Mageth, I suspect we agree on most things but disagree on a few points. First off for the record I am all for freedom of choice as to where a person gets their guidance. What I am not for is unsubstantiated claims that one source of guidance is vastly superior to all others based on supernatural origins that are also unsubstantiated. That being said I think the bible should be available. Secondly, the bible has been picked clean. There is nothing worth adopting in the bible that is not already incorporated in our society, and as I pointed out regarding the platinum rule and you the alloy rule, some of these could stand replacement with better ideas. So I would not give the bible any special place in the universe of guidance, in fact I would downgrade it for many obvious reasons that have been previously stated.

The argument about the timelessness of the human condition doesn’t cut it. One of those conditions is ignorance and a great deal of this older wisdom is badly tainted by that ignorance and therefore should be viewed with suspicion. Just because it’s old doesn’t mean it’s worth a damn. The baby in the bath water is only a valid argument if the only place the baby existed was in the bathwater. As stated before, the bible is not the only place to get guidance. You can look if you like but why mine a very low quality vein of knowledge when there is much better and much more suited to our times. We may never shed the bible, and I do not propose that we do, but some day people are going to realize that we have adopted a new standard of reality and supernatural religion just doesn’t measure up. Even Joe Campbell in his last book admitted that in this day and age supernatural religion is a failure because we have a new standard of reality. We live in a world where Monday through Saturday we use the new standard of reality but on Sunday people adopt a standard that has been out of favor for over four hundred years. As a result no one can take seriously the lessons of supernatural religion because they are couched in terms that we no longer remotely consider real.

Starboy

Mageth

Mageth, I suspect we agree on most things but disagree on a few points.

I agree.

First off for the record I am all for freedom of choice as to where a person gets their guidance. What I am not for is unsubstantiated claims that one source of guidance is vastly superior to all others based on supernatural origins that are also unsubstantiated.

Absolutely in agreement there.

That being said I think the bible should be available. Secondly, the bible has been picked clean. There is nothing worth adopting in the bible that is not already incorporated in our society, and as I pointed out regarding the platinum rule and you the alloy rule, some of these could stand replacement with better ideas. So I would not give the bible any special place in the universe of guidance, in fact I would downgrade it for many obvious reasons that have been previously stated.

I agree for the most part, but "downgrading", [i]if[/b] it means demoting it to a lower place than other sources, seems a bit counter to the argument against promoting it to a superior level. Perhaps one should approach all sources as equally valid places to look, neither promoting the new nor demoting the old just because of their age.

The argument about the timelessness of the human condition doesn’t cut it.

I don't know about that. The cycle of life, birth, childhood, coming of age, dealing with your parents, children, and neighbors, maturity, choosing a life path, work, sex, aging, approaching death and death all seem to be timeless and universal. How we go about some of them may change, but the general theme is still there.

One of those conditions is ignorance and a great deal of this older wisdom is badly tainted by that ignorance and therefore should be viewed with suspicion. Just because it’s old doesn’t mean it’s worth a damn.

Absolutely it doesn't, but it also doesn't mean that it's not worth a damn, or that the newer sources are worth a damn or not worth a damn.

I don't think assuming our ancestors were "ignorant" and therefore their views on life are worthless is a good way to approach things. I don't really think you agree with that statement, but I think you might want to give the ancients a little more credit. They dealt with the same basic problems we do today. Yes, we have the benefit of more knowledge of the universe, more technology, more science, a broader world view, etc., but we still have to do those basic functions, follow the same basic path, face the same fears and desires as they did.

The baby in the bath water is only a valid argument if the only place the baby existed was in the bathwater. As stated before, the bible is not the only place to get guidance. You can look if you like but why mine a very low quality vein of knowledge when there is much better and much more suited to our times.

All of our knowledge is based on the foundations of the past. Yes, some of the ancient knowledge has been surpassed, but I think there's still much value to be found there. Hence, the bible is still, in my opinion, one place one can look (keeping in mind that it's not in an elevated position, and that one should consider other sources, ancient and new).

We may never shed the bible, and I do not propose that we do, but some day people are going to realize that we have adopted a new standard of reality and supernatural religion just doesn’t measure up.

A good dream or goal to have, in my opinion. I tend to be a bit pessimistic about this, though, as I think at least into the foreseeable future the supernatural will remain fixed in many people's minds.

Even Joe Campbell in his last book admitted that in this day and age supernatural religion is a failure because we have a new standard of reality.

Yes, he did. Campbell was no fan of "supernatural" religion, but yet he found value in the myths and rituals embodied by them. Campbell also mined the bible and most if not all ancient myth sources to find the common, universal truths/motifs in the myths, and to explain how those common motifs can be applied to our lives in today's world. His problem was with those who "turned the poetry into prose", interpreted mythical texts literally to form religions, not with the poetry itself.

We live in a world where Monday through Saturday we use the new standard of reality but on Sunday people adopt a standard that has been out of favor for over four hundred years.

I think the major religions have been adapting to the "new world", actually. Cherry picking is actually an example of that. Four hundred years ago, cherry picking could get you burned at the stake. Perhaps the trend towards cherry picking will continue until there are no more cherries to pick on the tree.

As a result no one can take seriously the lessons of supernatural religion because they are couched in terms that we no longer remotely consider real.

Well, obviously many still do take them seriously. If we all would read and understand Joe Campbell, then perhaps we could get the world going in a better direction.

I think the problem here is that it depends upon how one approaches the texts todays supernatural religions are based on, e.g. the bible. If one approaches a text as non-insipired, as a product of man, as not an ultimate source, as poetry (non-history, meant to illuminate aspects of life) rather than prose (history, meant to depict reality), then value applicable to today's world may be found there.