Amie

you have a special place in my heart Rad

I also agree about making choices to *Not* do things giving more meaningful things...this has just been my experience...

Good thread Jamie!

Biff the unclean

If you like that then you'd LOVE being an Atheist. We've stopped doing some pretty awful things once we became Atheists

ManM

Jamie_L,
Does this mean a person has no ability to influence himself? This is the crux of the matter. You propose a person who has the ability to do good and evil, but not the ability to influence his own nature. A determined being can have the ability to perform evil, but never do so. An independent being can be the same. The difference between the two is a matter of who would be responsible for evil. If God created us with a certain nature, it is quite strange for Him to punish us for having an evil nature. However, if God created us with the freedom to influence our own nature, I would no longer consider it problematic for Him to punish us for having an evil nature.

Jinto

Please consider the following:

A police officer (who also happens to be judge, jury, and executioner, but that's not important right now) stands in front of a dark alley where a woman is being raped. She screams at him to help her, and... he just stands there and watches. When asked later why he didn't act, he replies that he didn't want to restrict the rapists free will. Later, he executes the woman for not loving him and his great wisdom.

And you don't see the problem with this?

Radorth

Yikes, you must have been a fundie legalist or a Pharisee. Glad you got out of that.

And the fruit of your fleshly rebirth is what exactly? You mean like locking yourself up in an impenetrable fortress and making assertions with zero evidence to back them up?

I'd hate to think what you were doing as a "Christian."

Rad

ManM

Jinto,
I see a problem with the part where God executes the woman. By the way, if we were created with the freedom to oppose God, then it must be said that God cannot stop us.

Jamie_L

Indeed, this is an important question. And I'm not sure I know the answer. On the one hand, it seems obvious that some bad people later become good people, and some good people become bad people. But where does the influence come from? Decisions are based on desires, and without a desire, people have no motive to make decisions. If a good person influences himself to become a bad person, where does his desire to make this change come from? Why does he desire to be bad when previously he did not? Does this desire spring out of nowhere? Does he create it, even though he has does not want to create it? Is it even possible to create a desire that you don't want to create?

It seems to me that changes in a person's basic nature mostly come from external influences interacting with the person's existing nature. But, when we talk about God creating the universe, all influences external to the individual are created by the same being (God) that created the internal influences in the individual. I.E., God creates the individual's nature as well as everything that influences that nature.

Absent all forms of external influence, it seems to me that an individual would not change his nature. He would have no reason or motive, and perhaps even no ability. Because when we talk about internal changes to a person's nature, motive and ability are essentially the same thing.

Jamie

Biff the unclean

No, I was just an ordinary run of the mill Christian…that was quite bad enough thanks

Well ya see Rad that was my very problem as a Christian. I was a terrible liar. I would tell people that there was a God. Then I would go on to tell them what God was like, what he wanted, what his plans were, and how good he was.
But I couldn't prove one single word that I said. I was just saying it, and getting big pats on the back for saying it. Singing the God songs, having a good old time.
Then one day I heard a woman, a fellow Christian, say "I don't need proof. I have faith." That was such a stupid, such an arrogant and such an immoral thing to say that it started me on my way to Atheism.
I realized that I was a liar because I didn't have any proof of my claims either, just faith. I was saying all sorts of things that I couldn't back up. So I started years of study determined that I wasn't going to say things about God that I couldn't demonstrate as being the truth. I was determined to stop being immoral.
There was no "fleshly rebirth" involved. No religious experience, no revelation. I just had to give up lying to myself and others. I highly recommend it.

7thangel

I think this is one thread that will doom Christians who believe in free will. And certainly those who believe about literal hell and original sin. They will surely go to hell for teaching errors.

And yes, God predestines us. Romans 8:24-30

Excellent post, Jamie L.

Jinto

Hm. Then I suppose that you would be against God's policy of damning unbelievers to hell. So much for perfect good. By the way, if God cannot stop us, then He is not omnipotent.

Cheers.