Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Geoff Hudson · 06-22-2003, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
Vinnie, I'm sure Doherty would have no problem declaring the apostles to be mythical as well as Jesus. There is just the matter of eyewitness testimony, for those who think that Paul wrote some letters attributed to him. Or was Paul arguing with himself in Galatians 2:11-14? But note that some people separate "Cephas" and Peter, the former being (purportedly) the only name given to this Jerusalem pillar by Paul.

best,
Peter Kirby

They were the three "wise" men (Ant.18:3:5).

Geoff

Vinnie · 06-22-2003, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Vinnie, I'm sure Doherty would have no problem declaring the apostles to be mythical as well as Jesus.

and the hole gets deeper still....

Peter Kirby · 06-22-2003, 10:05 AM

But he doesn't go there, Vinnie. You should be able to determine this yourself by reading his stuff, if you are going to argue against his positions.

best,
Peter Kirby

Toto · 06-22-2003, 10:40 AM

Paul refers to Peter (or Cephas), but does he identify him as an original disciple who knew Jesus at any point? I think he is identified as a "pillar of the church", along with James and John.

And Paul refers to James as "the brother of the Lord." If he had meant a biological brother, wouldn't he have had to say "one of the Lord's brothers" since there were evidently several brothers, or "the oldest survivng brother of the Lord"? (Just something that popped into my mind last night. Maybe this argument would not make sense in Greek, since the definite article has a different usage.)

Vinnie · 06-22-2003, 10:55 AM

Quote:

If he had meant a biological brother, wouldn't he have had to say "one of the Lord's brothers" since there were evidently several brothers, or "the oldest survivng brother of the Lord"?

I don't follow?

Vinnie

Toto · 06-22-2003, 09:00 PM

OK, suppose I have one brother, James. He could be referred to uniquely as "the brother of Toto." But suppose I have 6 brothers. Would you call James "the brother of Toto" or "a brother of Toto" or maybe "one of Toto's brothers"?

In English, you would probably say "Toto's brother James" and avoid the problem.

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06-22-2003, 10:05 AM	#13
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	But he doesn't go there, Vinnie. You should be able to determine this yourself by reading his stuff, if you are going to argue against his positions. best, Peter Kirby

06-22-2003, 10:40 AM	#14
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Paul refers to Peter (or Cephas), but does he identify him as an original disciple who knew Jesus at any point? I think he is identified as a "pillar of the church", along with James and John. And Paul refers to James as "the brother of the Lord." If he had meant a biological brother, wouldn't he have had to say "one of the Lord's brothers" since there were evidently several brothers, or "the oldest survivng brother of the Lord"? (Just something that popped into my mind last night. Maybe this argument would not make sense in Greek, since the definite article has a different usage.)

06-22-2003, 09:00 PM	#16
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	OK, suppose I have one brother, James. He could be referred to uniquely as "the brother of Toto." But suppose I have 6 brothers. Would you call James "the brother of Toto" or "a brother of Toto" or maybe "one of Toto's brothers"? In English, you would probably say "Toto's brother James" and avoid the problem.

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