Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RJS · 05-17-2002, 11:12 AM

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Fine, but how can you make an analogy without comparing?

Comparing two things is different than stating they are comparable.

Matt · 05-17-2002, 11:17 AM

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Originally posted by MrDarwin:


We're talking eternal damnation here, aren't we? But what about those who ask for forgiveness and repent after death and damnation? Since you say that God loves the damned, why would God withhold from them the possibility of repentance, forgiveness, and relief from suffering? Sorry, I just don't get it.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

Because, silly! That would take all the fun out of having been right. If the True Christians(tm) can't peer down from their cloudy paradise and say "Don't say we didn't warn you!" to all us suffering heathens, then it wouldn't be an exclusive club at all!

RJS · 05-17-2002, 11:17 AM

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Why is it that you believe this Creator that birthed the world is a HE? Why not a she, it or they?

answered already

doc58 · 05-17-2002, 11:23 AM

RJS,
You certainly have been asked a lot of questions. Congrats for not bailing like most of your brethren. If you have time I would be interested in your thoughts on these questions.

1) When I was a Christian, one theme we always praised God for was the great sacrifice He made in sending his only son. I got to thinking. Where is the big sacrifice? Basically, Jesus endured 6(maybe a few more) hours or so of significant discomfort. But much less than many humans endure during there lives.
Jesus also had lived for all eternity past in total bliss so new exactly what he was about to get back to.
That 6 hours is less than a second of time when eternity is considered.
I just don't see the big sacrifice.

2) If the wages of sin is eternal hell and Jesus took our sins on himself to pay the price, then why doesn't he pay the same price as we do, eternal hell? What exactly did Jesus pay for our sins. A few hours of discomfort? For a being who exists for all eternity and knows first hand that physical death is nothing, then dying physically is no big deal, a big nothing.

Thanks

MrDarwin · 05-17-2002, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:

If there is one or two pressing questions you have for me, please reiterate them and I promise to tell you what I think.

I think the one really pressing unanswered question is what purpose there could possibly be to eternal suffering without any hope or even possibility of it ever ending.

Quite simply, such a choice and such consequences do not describe a benevolent, merciful, least of all just, God because it says that God has chosen to create a group (and by all accounts it will be a very large group)--the damned--to whom he/she/it will deny mercy.

It's not enough to say that the damned chose this situation for themselves; the possibility of the choice, as well as the consequences of the choice (eternal consequences made after a finite lifetime of experiences!), were originally devised by God (according to Christian theology, I always hasten to add). So to repeat, what purpose could it possibly serve?

Sci_Fidelity · 05-17-2002, 11:40 AM

From a previous page:

Posted by RJS:

Quote:

I would state that as God created a system with players that have a free will to choose to reject or accept Him, and that to the extent we rebel against Him either for part or all of our lives (you, me, Satan, man in general) the consequences of our actions were not unintended

You can't have free will if someone is holding your life in the balance. It's like putting someone in jail, then telling him he's free to go, but if he does, you'll shoot him.

RJS · 05-17-2002, 11:45 AM

Quote:

(1) When I was a Christian, one theme we always praised God for was the great sacrifice He made in sending his only son. I got to thinking. Where is the big sacrifice? Basically, Jesus endured 6(maybe a few more) hours or so of significant discomfort. But much less than many humans endure during there lives.
Jesus also had lived for all eternity past in total bliss so new exactly what he was about to get back to.
That 6 hours is less than a second of time when eternity is considered.
I just don't see the big sacrifice.

Crucifixion seems to rate up there with some of the more horrid things others have asked me about. Praising God for his grace in providing a means for our forgiveness and salvation is also a large part of one mindset when reflecting on the whole series of events.

Quote:

2) If the wages of sin is eternal hell and Jesus took our sins on himself to pay the price, then why doesn't he pay the same price as we do, eternal hell? What exactly did Jesus pay for our sins. A few hours of discomfort? For a being who exists for all eternity and knows first hand that physical death is nothing, then dying physically is no big deal, a big nothing.

This seems to be a regurgitation of the first question.

RJS · 05-17-2002, 11:48 AM

Quote:

think the one really pressing unanswered question is what purpose there could possibly be to eternal suffering without any hope or even possibility of it ever ending.

I believe I have answered by stating that I do not know.

I also stated the following with respect to why God set it all up to begin with.

"I dont know - and dont know anyone who does. Quite frankly, I think the "reason" that God created this whole thing is unknowable. I know people say that He created it so that we can know Him and love Him, and with that I do agree. But I cannot answer the basic question of "Why did the Almighty even bother in the first place". I suspect it has something to do with Love.

I also stated.

"I really do feel that there is a piece of the puzzle missing. And I strongly believe that it is significantly more likely than all of this (existence) being a random event. I also feel it has something to do with agape love. And I have the hunch that our concept of time is irrelevant with respect to God. Don't ask me to elaborate, please, because I cant. "

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

doc58 · 05-17-2002, 11:48 AM

I guess you misunderstood my questions since you gave a non answer. But thanks for the attempt.

Mageth · 05-17-2002, 11:57 AM

Comparing two things is different than stating they are comparable.

Whatever. But I stand by my original statement, which I consider valid anyway:

"When someone gets terminal cancer or a horrible disease like Ebola, it's hardly comparable to a vaccination."

With the addendum: And thus, your analogy is a weak one at best.

Since you haven't discussed the actual point of my post, I'll phrase it as questions:

Do you consider God to be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent? If so, how do you justify this belief in the light of 1) suffering during life and 2) punishment after death?

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05-17-2002, 11:23 AM	#294
doc58 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 101	RJS, You certainly have been asked a lot of questions. Congrats for not bailing like most of your brethren. If you have time I would be interested in your thoughts on these questions. 1) When I was a Christian, one theme we always praised God for was the great sacrifice He made in sending his only son. I got to thinking. Where is the big sacrifice? Basically, Jesus endured 6(maybe a few more) hours or so of significant discomfort. But much less than many humans endure during there lives. Jesus also had lived for all eternity past in total bliss so new exactly what he was about to get back to. That 6 hours is less than a second of time when eternity is considered. I just don't see the big sacrifice. 2) If the wages of sin is eternal hell and Jesus took our sins on himself to pay the price, then why doesn't he pay the same price as we do, eternal hell? What exactly did Jesus pay for our sins. A few hours of discomfort? For a being who exists for all eternity and knows first hand that physical death is nothing, then dying physically is no big deal, a big nothing. Thanks

05-17-2002, 11:48 AM	#299
doc58 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 101	I guess you misunderstood my questions since you gave a non answer. But thanks for the attempt.

05-17-2002, 11:57 AM	#300
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Comparing two things is different than stating they are comparable. Whatever. But I stand by my original statement, which I consider valid anyway: "When someone gets terminal cancer or a horrible disease like Ebola, it's hardly comparable to a vaccination." With the addendum: And thus, your analogy is a weak one at best. Since you haven't discussed the actual point of my post, I'll phrase it as questions: Do you consider God to be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent? If so, how do you justify this belief in the light of 1) suffering during life and 2) punishment after death?

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