Abel Stable

Medicine is more effective than placebo. Action works better than prayer. If I need penicillin, I'm not going to take a sugar pill instead (the same goes for other people). It wouldn't matter if I could knock a prayer out in a fraction of a second...I would just be kidding myself and trying to defer my responsibility. What do I have to lose? Self-respect & self-confidence at least.

fishbulb

Prayer is a very old concept which predates Christianity by a long, long time. It wasn't invented by the ancient Hebrews either; it goes back much further than that. It goes hand in hand with the concept of gods or spirits as anthropomorphic beings who could be cajoled into providing services for people. This was done, effectively, by appealing to their egoes through prayer, prostration, tribute, and sacrifice. There is nothing mystical or spiritual about prayer; it's all about trying to make a god feel good in order to convince it to perform some sort of service for you (intercesory prayer), or to remind a powerful being that you are a loyal servant and so should be spared its wrath (devotional prayer).

The Christian concept of the transcendent and omnipotent god is incompatible with this notion, but most of the spiritual beliefs of Christians don't come from Christian theology per se, but rather from much older traditions which often contradict the theology. However, it seems that we humans have an astounding ability to compartmentalize our beliefs, allowing us to believe one thing in one situation and, like toggling a light switch, abandon that belief for another, contradictory, one in a different situation. For example, someone might believe that god is omnipotent with a master plan that cannot be influenced by humans when thinking about the meaning of life, but be able to put that belief aside and activate a belief that God might intervene in worldly affairs and help you out--if you ask nicely--when worrying about a sick relative.

Edit to add: it is when someone is forced to confront and reconcile two contradictory but deeply held beliefs that we see a tremendous amount of mental contortionism and gymnastics.

DamagedGoods

Let me say that I appreciate the intent with which Rational and Molly offered their advice about prayer. I think you are offering something that you feel has helped you or brought you comfort in hopes that it will do so for others.

Something will only bring me some sense of comfort if I have a reasonable expectation that it can make a difference. I have no such expectations of prayer, so it just doesn't have the same comforting effect for me as it might for others.

There are other reasons that I will not pray:

1. I view it in the same light as taking Social Security or unemployment payments if I had not paid into the system. If the only time I come to a god is when I need something, then that (to me) indicates a weakness of my character. Even if I was willing to believe in the existence of a deity, I am not willing to pay the price of paying homage to it all the time, so I would not avail myself of its assistance even if it were available.

2. Even if prayer worked every time it was tried, it's like cheating at a game when I'm not winning. I don't like cheating; I always feel bad about it.

3. If I proclaim to others that I do not believe that there is a god, and yet I pray to one when "things get really bad," I am not being honest with myself. I had my fill of not being honest with myself when I was a Christian.

4. Maybe redundant, but I'll state it anyway: I am a very stubbornly independent person nowadays. I regained control of my life from mindless wandering based on religion, and I'm not about to give it up. If I may say so, things are going pretty well since I decided that I wouldn't look outside myself for direction and inspiration. Accepting advice from others is one thing, but seeking it out from a deity is completely different. Like I said before, it's a fundamental change in mindset to think of prayer as an option.

These are my personal reasons for not praying. Others may offer arguments against these reasons, but don't expect me to change my mind, since they are based on some fundamental components of my personal moral code.

Rational BAC

Damaged---

Everything you posted makes perfect sense.

But just a little friendly advice again. And what do you have to lose anyway?----

--a few seconds off course in a lifetime means nothing at all really. And it is not like some God is going to dump on you for blasphemy-------since an atheist does not believe in any God at all.

I am not talking about day to day problems. I am talking about SERIOUS problems which do occur in everyone's lifetime. Assume that everything is falling down around you, or some very serious health problem for you or for one of your loved ones occurs. Or any number of catastrophic events that might occur------------

What have you got to lose really by praying for a few seconds? Standing on principle is very nice, but when push comes to shove, in a terrible situation, what do a few seconds of prayer really hurt, even for an atheist?

Can't hurt, might help.

Abel Stable

Rational BAC:

I still disagree with your friendly advice of "what could it hurt? what do you have to lose?"

Since you're talking about SERIOUS catastrophic problems...I personally think that such times would require more of my focused attention & that prayer would equal dragging my feet & hesitating. I feel no need to pray, regardless of the circumstances.....but prayer would be furthest from my thoughts given a particularly immediate & disastrous situation. You could suggest that I pray while trying to help, but I didn’t even believe that would help when I was still religious. Since I have never seen a case of prayer accomplishing anything, it not an option for me during an emergency or arduous situation.

I don’t pray for the same reason that I don’t carry a rabbit’s foot around.

Like I said before: I would lose my self-respect, self-confidence, and (I'll add) self-reliance.

DamagedGoods

Rational,

I feel as if I am not getting my point across here. I have considered all the horrible possibilities you mentioned above, and in none of them do I think I would feel comforted by prayer. But, in an effort to avoid filling up the forum database with this discussion, I will say that if I should ever find myself in one of them that hasn't happened already, and I pray, and feel better because of it, I will be sure to post in these forums to let you know you were right. Just don't hold your breath.

I just have to comment on this one. Standing on principle is something I consider very important, not just nice, because I have put a lot of time and effort into choosing the principles I use to make choices. Your statement reminds me of what I hear from federal politicians: they talk about how very quaint it is that people believe they shouldn't pass certain laws or take certain actions when the Consitution does not empower them to do so, but that "the reality of the situation just doesn't allow me to stand on principle in such an idealistic way." To which I usually say, BS. Not a perfect example/analogy, but it's what came to mind.

Would praying in a terrible situation cause me to spiral into a state of moral decay, because I violated some of my principles? Most likely not. But it would still be dishonest of me to do so. I would hope that an omnipotent, omnibenevolent god would give me some credit for sticking to my principles and not deceiving myself - which in many ways are consistent with the laws he supposedly put forth in the bible - and just grant me what he knows I would like to happen anyway. If a god won't do that, then it sounds like he's the one that is being an ass about standing on the principle that he can't be bothered to help anyone that won't beg him for help.

MollyMac

As an atheist, I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with it. I didn't intend my post be taken too seriously. I wouldn't go so far as to say it brought me consoloation. For me prayer is a habit I return to under extreme stress much the way some people who've given up smoking or used to bite their nails will suddenly revert to doing these things. Personally, I wouldn't recommend anyone take up any of these habits for the first time. On the other hand, I wouldn't try and dissuade them if that's what they feel they need to do to get them through. People deal with stress in all kinds of different ways, after all. I don't imagine I'm talking to God when I pray like this - I'm talking to myself and I might find repeating 'ugga mugga wugga' works just as well.

Sabine Grant

Unfortunatly anyone who has a loved one in need of a vital organ transplant has to dwell on someone else's dismay to see him or her rescued from death. So that does not invalidate the intent of prayer in that case. It applies to all people.

Prayer is not just a mean to ask for what we will to have or see happen. Prayer also is a mean to be thankful. Prayer at times is a mean to be comforted or reassured. It can drive away fear or loneliness. It can overcome negative emotions. It can restore hope. It can give a glance of the light at the end of a tunnel of difficult circumstances. It can strengthen. It can promote reflection rather than allow a reactive response. It can inspire self introspection.

It is not just only about petitioning any god for anything we will to have. It can impact the human mind and modify an ill intent into a good intent. It can help us modify our natures.... it can help us forgive. It can help us not hate or despise. It can help us appreciate the simpliest things.

It can help us accept what we cannot change and reach serenity.

Bree

If only more Christians thought along these lines. In reality - whether you are looking at this situation from a believer or non-believer's point of view - prayer does more for the pray-er than the pray-ee. Will God say yes or no, or maybe? You don't know. The only thing you DO know is that you knelt before God in humility, realising the situation is out of control. Prayer is definately helpful in times like these - not for me personally (and certainly not for everyone) - but you can't deny that for some people prayer is the first step on the road to acceptance.

The_Unknown_Banana

Well, a way of explaining this part, I guess, would be that the person praying willingly prayed, asking for peace of mind, or guidance. The person then still has free will to do whatever with that newfound direction. They still have the free will to go and do exactly the opposite, and they had the choice not to pray in the first place. = free will?

Don't get me wrong, I still think prayer has nothing to do with the divine, and only perhaps helps one attain the mindset to get through tough situations. (among other self-related things)