NOGO

Yahweh says that they must kill everyone but that they can keep virgin girls for themselvess. They then distribute them among the men. What do you think they do with these women?

Ed

No, I am making a distinction between morals that have a rational basis and morals that have an irrational basis. The morals themselves could be identical but if they dont have a rational basis then they are less likely to be accepted and held by others and provide a good foundation for a great society.


[b] Any system of humanistic morality is irrational because without God there is no rational basis to treat humans any different from any other animal. All humanistic moralities are just based on sentimentality for the human species.

Panta Pei

Please to meet you Ed.

I'm a non-theistic humanist and I have found the above quote a bit contradictory....please clarify:

Does humanism promote an equal treatment between humans and any other animal or does it base its moralities on sentimentality for the human species?

Also, are you inferring that theists may treat other animals more cruel because they are not as special as humans?

Thanks for your time and consideration regarding my interest.

~ Steve

[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: Panta Pei ]</p>

DigitalDruid

Ed wrote:
Ed, suppose God appears in front of you and tells you :"Ed, go kill your neighbor, - he is the devil in disguise" and then vanishes. Assuming you don't kill your neighbor, you are already applying moral principles not derived from God.

I think all sane Christians use a non-godly standard of morality to filter what God purportedly told them to do in the bible, whether they admit it or not. For example, most Christians no longer hold that mere thinking of adulterous thoughts deserves the death penalty. Here also they are applying a standard of morality not derived from God or bible.

GunnerJ

I wonder how this is different from the "moral reletivism" Ed seems to so dispise. Seems like a perfect example of the straw man of "situational ethics" Xains like to accuse atheists of having. "It's bad to rape, murder, kill and steal, EXCEPT in this one situation..."

NOGO

Morality like etiquette is a social thing. It is a social contract. I agree to behave in a certain way as not to offend/hurt others and they promise to do the same. We make rules, written or not, and enforce them by physical confinement or by social exclusion.

Starboy

HA! I knew it! OK, Ed, lets see how far we can take this. Let us take it as a given that god existed, but let us say that I as an atheist was convinced that god did not exist. Even though I do not believe in god, by god’s mere existence, could I possess rational morals and still not believe in god?

Come on Ed, why don't you just say it in plain language for everyone to see. Just say it:

"If you don't believe in god you are not rational and you never will be until you do."

I think that sums up your argument. You might want to add more effect to it by adding:

"Nanny nanny boo boo!"

Starboy

[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

NOGO

Deut 21
10 "When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive,
11 and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself,
12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails.
13 "She shall also remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.
14 "It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not mistreat her, because you have humbled her.

I know Ed you will be tempted to say that this is regular marriage but it isn't. Regular marriages cannot be broken that easily.

The woman above is a slave and she is being raped with the blessing of Yahweh.

Note the "you have humbled her".
I did not know that you can humble a woman by marrying her. Sounds more like rape to me. The word marriage in this text is a euphemism for the sexual act.

Jack the Bodiless

Even God himself is a rapist, Ed.

Starboy

Ed, your way of thinking is becoming clear to me. In your world faith = rational, lies = truth, morals = (deceit, murder, rape, etc.), reality = fantasy. I can work with this. Okay Ed when I give you a $1 bill, think of it as a $100 dollar bill.

Starboy