Baloo

Nope, in this case there is only their testimonies. Is Zork a cruel god? (do not dodge this question)

xian

if this answer is indeed honest, and not just to counter my arguments, then your test is more genuine that I previously thought. (if you see God as cruel then your test is not genuine).

however, i have no reason to think you would be dishonest, so i will take this at face value.

having said this (that your test may be indeed genuine), it still has the problem of a dependent being placing a requirement on a sovereign one. IF God exists (that is an IF), complying to your test would not be necessary, however God (I believe) would give you evidence of Himself in other ways that you had not expected.

xian

based on this alone, I neither see Zork as cruel nor loving. I see Zork as a shadow requring more details to formulate an opinion.


I WANT to know if Zork is cruel or loving. I WANT to make that conclusion, and am willing to do so, but need some more details. Without a third party "manual" or "Book of Zork" that is common to the 4 people, having an opinion stricly based on 4 sentences of less than 15 words each spoken by 4 people is not enough.

Baloo

You continue to dodge the question, and one wonders why. I think, deep down, you have to admit that Zork is cruel. I may be wrong, but this is what I believe.

So would you stop with the dodging?

Baloo

You have moved into the same category as Sotzo then - see my last reply to him earlier in this thread.

Sorry for being short with you, that was a reflection of the frustration inherent in having a discussion with somebody who presumes to know what is going on in my head. Allow me to give a more detailed response.

I'm being entirely honest - with respect to a loving but mysterious (non-cruel) J/C God I am a weak atheist, with respect to a cruel J/C God, I am a strong atheist. I see "Creator of Universe" and "Cruel" as mutally exclusive attributes. In other words, I could no more close my eyes and envision "Cruel Creator" than you could close your eyes and envision a "square circle" (try it).

Since a literal interpretation of the bible, read under the assumption that the authors were both able to understand and accurately portray the motivations of the creator of the universe, appears to describe a "square circle" god, I maintain as an atheist or as a Christinan, due to proof via contradiction, that the above assumptions are false. However, a liberal reading of the bible, read under the assumption that the stories are written by men, perhaps inspired by the Creator, but nonetheless limited by their understanding of the Creator and the world around them, yields no such contradiction. I am not aware of any formal description of Judeic Christianity which requires a literal reading of the bible, or rejects a liberal interpretation, thus I maintain that the J/C God cannot be defined (as you have done) as the deity yielded by a literal interpretation of the bible. That is called a straw man.

I was a Christian. I believed in the J/C God. And I did not believe that God was cruel. My perspective of the J/C God in which I once believed has only changed in one facet: I no longer believe that God exists.

xian

huh? i am not dodging the question. i answered it directly.

i do not formulate opinions on a proposed being without reading or studying a source document or have more information about it

if fred says to me "Lord of the rings sucked" and John says "lord of the rings was great"....i reserve my opinion until I watch lord of the rings.

In the same manner, if a Zork follower said "Zork is cruel" and another said "Zork is loving"... i reserve my opinion on ZOrk until I read the Book of Zork (or whatever source material they use for Zork)

I did not form an opinion on Spock without watching Star Trek.

this is not the same as the J/C God that you dodged so much. All Christians have a source that they derive their knowledge of God from: The Bible. You have access to this source. Whether or not you agree with the source material is irrelevant. harry potter is a fictitious book, yet there is enough material there for me to formulate an opinion on harry potter. There is enough material contained in this 1000+ page source for you to formulate a detailed opinion about the Judeo Christian God. A highly detailed opinion. So why do you not give it to me?

And then you have the audacity to compare more than 1000+ pages of source material to 4 sentences and no source material as somehow justifying your indian rain dancing around my questions.

This is sad, because I read your opening post. I saw you as an intriguing person, one that I even liked. I took the assumption you were genuine and open. I see now that it is all a game. I merely tried to engage you in honest dialogue. YOu made this difficult. You are even treating me like some game. Good conversation requires that both parties participate. I will therefore let you get back to playing your little game since reasonable dialogue is seems futile between us.

Baloo

Do you see the J/C God as cruel?

xian

i am not going to be a pawn in your chess game. sorry, I gave you so many chances for honest dialogue, but you decided to turn me away.

Baloo

Did you see three posts ago, when I said:
I think we kind of cross-posted. Deep breath; this is not a game, I am putting 5 years of my life on the line here. The ABCD Zork was meant to emphasize the different interpretations of the Bible, without getting bogged down. My curtness was due to your decision to choose, for me, which interpretation of the bible I would use (more pointedly, your choice of a rather simplistic and ignorant interpretation).

Please accept my apologies for rubbing you the wrong way.

Now, are you offended by the question: Do you believe the J/C God is cruel? If so, I'll leave it at that, if not, please answer (I'm as intrigued by your response as you undoubtably were by mine).

xian

well thank you for being kind. I am only trying to talk to you is all. i understand that different people say different things about the Judeo Christian God. Just like different people say different things about Lord of the Rings and Star Trek. If I based my opinion on Spock simply based off what other people said about Star Trek, I would be doing myself an injustice simply because I have the ability to see star trek for myself. Now, if I did not have that ability and people's testimony was ALL I had to go on, then so be it. I would do my best to formulate an opinion.

You have access to a book called the Bible. This book is the book from which all those opinions on God are derived from. If you formulate your opinion of God simply based on other people's interpretation of the Bible when you have full access to it you are not making a good effort to have the most informed opinion possible.

If your test was genuine, then I would naturally assume that you have made the best effort possible to learn about the identity and claims of the Christian God in addition to the testimony of its followers. To put short, I assumed you would have read, at least in part...the Bible.

I do believe that the material necessary to formulate an opinion on the question "Do you see God as cruel" is ample...more than enough.



no.