Yellum Notnef

I pity the fool who said that!

I'll put that friggen buybul Jebus AND the guy who said who said it's better than me in a figure 4 leg lock.

cydonia

Don't send me to hell jesus!

Godless Dave

Liberal Christians are the most intellectually honest Christians there are. Because anyone with a functioning brain who really thinks about it has to accept that the Bible was written by human beings. And once you acknowledge that, there is no way to determine whether it was really inspired by God or the authors just claimed they were inspired by God. So the liberal Christians approach the Bible as a work of literature. And when you do that you can find some truths about the human condition in there, but you aren't beholden to all the mores of the patriarchal, slave-owning Bronze Age cultures that produced it.

Sure liberal Christians pick and choose. That's because they use their brains and their own values when reading the Bible. The ones I've talked to see Christianity as one way of approaching God (whatever that is) but not the only way. They see the Bible as an imperfect human attempt to understand God. Even the ones who believe in the divinity of Jesus accept that the human authors of the New Testament put words in his mouth and added mythical elements to his story.

Face it, even Biblical literalists have to pick and choose, they just don't admit it. The two Creation stories in Genesis are contradictory, so they choose which one is the literal truth. They choose to believe that homosexuality is a sin but eating shellfish is not. They decide whether "Turn the other cheek" or "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth" is appropriate depending on the situation. They choose to believe abortion is wrong, even though the Bible doesn't say so. They even choose to observe the Sabbath on Sunday, even though the Bible says it's Saturday.

southernhybrid

Yes and some atheists are equally annoying. Some atheists cling to silly ideas and beliefs too, although they might not entail religion. That makes them no less attractive to me as individuals.

The reason I defend the liberal Xians is that they are often there with atheists defending separation of church and state as well as trying to keep science curricula based on science instead of myth. That is why I find no positive reason to criticize their religion or berate them for their beliefs. I think most of them have thought about the things they believe as much as most atheists have. I don't find their religious views pose a threat to me or to society in the way that fundamentalists do. I think they are far more thoughtful about their religious beliefs than the more conservative type of Christian.

Also, by making them our allies, there is certainly a better chance that they might eventually find they no longer need religion. So you see, it's all part of the evil atheist conspiracy that leads me to embrace liberal Christianity.


I'm just kidding about the evil atheist conspiracy. It doesn't exist, really it doesn't.

Harumi

You might like to note that I said 'some'. And I didn't say they were stupid. I said they were 'annoying'.

southernhybrid, I agree with you completely. I was simply pointing out another side of liberal Christians, not disregarding them. I respect their liberal Christian beliefs as much as I respect other beliefs. It's only when some liberal Christians are like the example I had stated before that really bother me.

They really don't have a right to criticize other people for picking and choosing when they do it themselves. This applies to all people, not just Christians mind you. I have problems with anyone who does it, and that includes atheists! I also have a problem with people who like the create conspiracy theories, who accuse a certain group of one characteristic, and are militant to the extreme. Luckily liberal Christians don't tend to be that way, which is why I get along with them very well.

However, because they pick and choose, it is very hard to argue against them when we do get on the topic (not usually of my choosing). I point out certain logical problems, and then they say, "Well, I don't believe God is omniscient. He's omnipotent and omnibenevolent, but not omniscient." I point out something wrong, they change their perceptions of Jesus and God as I point them out. No consistency! Frustrating... They can sometimes be more frustrating, simply because they don't hold a firm stance. At least you can always count on a fundie to be consistent on their stance.

Normally however, I find them very likeable. After being cornered by a fundie when I was thirteen, meeting liberal Christians was a very refreshing, very good thing for me. I don't have problems with them, they can keep their beliefs, and I will defend them just as fully as I would defend a freethinker's. In a way, they are like freethinkers. They just believe in God, and I have never heard that the criteria for being a freethinker requires that they not believe in a deity.

It's only when they get on my nerves that they become frustrating, and I have met enough that have gotten on my nerves to know. The same goes for atheists too. Read my 'Obnoxious Atheists' thread to find out.

Badfish

From a human perspective I would agree, but this is not to say that God will not judge and find radical deviant liberals in contempt of his law and his commandment to adhere to the scriptures and be cast away.

If you read the bible, you will see that according to what is written, the God contained within the written scripture does not provide for picking and choosing according to one's human reason or logic.

This is something that most Christian scholars will agree on, however if you were Christian would you pick and choose according to your own logic?

Maybe you can't say because as a non believer you lack the guidance of the Holy Spirit to guide you through study.

And be logical with me and do not childishly say anything derrogatory, instead I ask that you try to consider from a Christian POV.

Also try to answer from a fundie view, what would you do?

I really hope for an intelligent response.

njhartsh

I think it's really interesting that atheist posters to this thread have voiced very different opinions of liberal Christianity. (Me, I sit on the fence about that question big-time.)

You probably understand, though, that large numbers of atheists find that tendency to be a severe moral failing of said "God," yes? For myself, I have no respect for any being that so horrendously denies the freedom of conscience.

I have a difficult time understanding how any Christian--indeed, any person--can avoid choosing "according to [her] own logic." But perhaps you're right that I'm having trouble thinking outside of my presuppositions on this issue.

As for the common move of "Holy Spirit" well-poisoning, have you considered the possibility that it is cherry-picking liberal Christians, and not "overliteral" conservative ones (or certain Biblical authors the latter rely upon), who are truly guided by the Holy Spirit? That it is Satan who brought certain hateful doctrines into the Word and who guides you to promulgate them, in defiance of the Godly liberals who act in real holy love?

THE GREEN BAY PACKERS SUCK!

Sorry. Knee-jerk response.

- Nathan

Badfish

Finally some logic!!


Seriously, thanks for the thoughtful post, it was very good, I appreciate that.

Tercel

I suppose, as a liberal, I have to agree!

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." -2 Cor 3:6

I've always got to go when I see fundamentalists arguing over the exact interpretation of an ambiguous verse on the background assumption that whatever it means to the letter is God's Infallible Word.

It is the meaning and message of the Bible as a whole that is important, not randomly chosen proof-texts taken literally and inerrantly!

Ronin

I've heard this invoked by all stripes of christians and have yet to receive an answer as to how the "whole bible" theory provides much clarity either.

How exactly does one read the "whole bible" and still not come away with the idea that Yahweh is a complete and utter murdering loon?

Goodness and love are not provided for within the bible even taken as a whole.

That is the only issue I have with liberal christians...they still seem irrationally attached to the idea that somewhere in that fable there is truth and love.