Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Principia · 11-15-2002, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Then I've just gone and criticized Superbrains myself. I really think he should think more about trying to write clearly than assume that pseudo-philosophical obsufucation means you are intelligent.

Xeluan,

I have it on good authority that the Moderation at ARN is now completely pro-ID. Tread carefully. I just noticed Superbrains baiting you for a retort.

theyeti · 11-15-2002, 11:02 PM

I used to be a moderator for this forum, but I've since hung up my hat and moved on. Nevertheless, I'd like to voice my displeasure at singling out any one individual for ridicule when that person isn't even able to defend himself, especially when said person has been banned from this board for circumstances not related to the goings on in this forum. In other words, I do not condone picking on people who are not a part of this forum or who have not been actively posting here in such a manner as to warrant attention. It's a different story when we're talking about a prominent member of the creationist and/or ID movements, but really, do we need to needle someone who's only crime is posting dumb shit on another board? I think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than this.

theyeti

Principia · 11-15-2002, 11:14 PM

Heh,

And to think that someone complained today that the ID critics didn't have the "intestinal fortitude" to criticize their own.

Thank you for being a man of principle.

pz · 11-16-2002, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Principia:

If the goal is to impress the lurkers of the merits of evolution vs. Creationism/ID, I think the best course of action is to boycott sites like ARN and ISCID, where the moderation is designed specifically to play to public sentiments and where moderators get to be as inflammatory as they can with impunity (e.g. John Bracht and Jack Foster).

I'm way ahead of you. I abandoned ARN and ISCID a month or two ago. It was all too clear that no one on the ID side is interested in science -- and that includes Mike Gene.

You know, if they were really interested in figuring out what's going on in biology, they'd be actively courting their loudest critics, because there is nothing like a good strong critical argument to focus the issues and lead them to fruitful hypotheses and enlightening experiments. Instead, though, they provide a nurturing environment for vacuous blatherings by the likes of mturner and In Christ Doug and rfh and the new bag of wind on the block, Langan.

Principia · 11-16-2002, 07:21 AM

pz,

I had a good month to cool off myself. If I can have the other members' patience for just a sec (sorry, this is going to be sort of a Baptist-Board type complaint): The point, imo, is that the critics are feeding the IDiots. The ARN site has been up for a good two-three years. Since that time, has there been any argument that has not been already discussed and shouted over? Come on, people. The ID research program is STILL non-existent. What else is there to talk about, besides defending against the basic Creationist, anti-evolution BS? I say, we speak loudest with our silence. Let them do their arm chair-philosophizing and Bible witnessing by themselves. I mean, just who is benefitting from the exchanges over there? Certainly not the ID critics, since we, after all, constitute the majority scientific opinion. No, it is the people like Dembski who openly claims that he learns more from the critics, or as another <a href="http://www.arn.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000416;p=1" target="_blank">IDiot</a> put it:

Quote:

Indeed. But that's the great thing about these forums. Many of the critics of ID appear to be scientists (or work in science-related fields). I do indeed pay attention to their substantive criticisms. And some of them have even helped to guide my thinking. Some of you might want to consider that you offer far more, in terms of helpful criticism, than any 2-3 anonymous reviewers who lack real interest in these issues.

Why take the abuse? Yet, we have maybe 2 or 3 our own Infidels who can't seem to get enough of it. But, I think this realization may be dawning on the critics. Today, on this <a href="http://www.arn.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000466" target="_blank">thread</a>, one of the critics pointed out:

Quote:

my reaction is, �Why bother.� If this is the attitude that Chris wants to present, and he feels obligated to continually add these types of comments to what I suppose he wants to be considered as substantial points, then my conclusion is that he really doesn�t want discussion. He�s got it all figured out, and all the rest of us �intellectual terrorists�, oblivious to truth and logic, will do nothing but defend our �illogical memes.�

If Chris wants to have some influence in the world, this arrogant, insulting, and even slanderous attitude will not get him far. If he wants to play the role of intellectual bigshot in the persecuted ID camp, then I hope he has fun.

to which, Jack Foster replied:

Quote:

So you disagree with the paragraph then? You support the teaching of falsehoods and the censorship of competing ideas?

To me, this paragraph is just correct on its face.

At any rate, I would ask anybody who feels so angered by Chris that they can't restrict their reponse to the ideas, to refrain from responding. And find someone else to debate.

Can the message for the ID critics to leave get any clearer than this?

[ November 16, 2002: Message edited by: Principia ]

Xeluan · 11-16-2002, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Principia:


Xeluan,

I have it on good authority that the Moderation at ARN is now completely pro-ID. Tread carefully. I just noticed Superbrains baiting you for a retort.

Won't work. If he actually addresses the content of my post rather than a Homer Simpson quote then I'll reply.

Xeluan

Xeluan · 11-16-2002, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Principia:


Can the message for the ID critics to leave get any clearer than this?

[ November 16, 2002: Message edited by: Principia ]

You have a point. Then again if <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000757" target="_blank">this
thread</a> weren't so germane in regards to my life I'd probably not be much arguing with IDers.

Xeluan

[ November 16, 2002: Message edited by: Xeluan ]

Bubba · 11-16-2002, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pz:


I'm way ahead of you. I abandoned ARN and ISCID a month or two ago. It was all too clear that no one on the ID side is interested in science -- and that includes Mike Gene.

You know, if they were really interested in figuring out what's going on in biology, they'd be actively courting their loudest critics, because there is nothing like a good strong critical argument to focus the issues and lead them to fruitful hypotheses and enlightening experiments. Instead, though, they provide a nurturing environment for vacuous blatherings by the likes of mturner and In Christ Doug and rfh and the new bag of wind on the block, Langan.

pz, this is one of the things that turned me from Hugh Ross style old earth creationism to thiestic evolution. Every person I know who is in biology and actually working in the field is a believer in evolution. I can't seem to find anyone with an actual interest in actual biology or geology or biochemistry or whatever who actually works with the stuff who wants anything to do with creationism or ID.

Actually I know some YEC's that aren't impressed with them either.

Douglas, I really don't have anything against you even though I made a couple of snide remarks during your non-debate with Scigirl. If you think ID has anything to bring to the table bring it here. Preferably in the form of peer reviewed articles in actual scince publications...and written by actual scientists doing actual research.

Bubba

Principia · 11-17-2002, 06:39 AM

When <a href="http://www.arn.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000039" target="_blank">asked</a> by our own Jesse:

Quote:

But you--and jazzraptor too, if I remember correctly--seem to feel differently, since you've made statements to the effect that this place would be better off if "debunkers" didn't post here. I wonder if you'd really be happy if you got that wish though--my impression is that virtually 100% of the ID critics who post here already have strong opinions about these issues and are here in a primarily debunkifying capacity. Wouldn't this forum be pretty boring if all the devil's advocates here left? It would be an interesting to try sometime, if we could get everyone in on it.

The amazing MiKe GeNe at ARN replied:

Quote:

That won't happen. After all, a significant number of people have apparently found some type of identity/meaning in being an "ID debunker."

LOL! I don't know guys, but this sounds like a challenge. Hey, anyone interested in conducting a little experiment? Let's say, we PM those critics we know, and tell them to keep off for a month? a year? until the IDiots have a research program?

EDIT: to trim down MiKe GeNe's rhetorical puff

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Principia ]

pangloss · 11-18-2002, 04:32 AM

Who got banned?

And Jack Foster (jazzraptor) is one of the biggest hypocrites on that slunkwagon.

When I was allowed to post there, he launched into a campaign of button pushing and pestering me to - in my opinion - try to get me to respond in kiind so that he could start lobbying the 'moderator' to get me banned.

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11-15-2002, 11:02 PM	#12
theyeti Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Denver, CO, USA Posts: 9,747	I used to be a moderator for this forum, but I've since hung up my hat and moved on. Nevertheless, I'd like to voice my displeasure at singling out any one individual for ridicule when that person isn't even able to defend himself, especially when said person has been banned from this board for circumstances not related to the goings on in this forum. In other words, I do not condone picking on people who are not a part of this forum or who have not been actively posting here in such a manner as to warrant attention. It's a different story when we're talking about a prominent member of the creationist and/or ID movements, but really, do we need to needle someone who's only crime is posting dumb shit on another board? I think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than this. theyeti

11-15-2002, 11:14 PM	#13
Principia Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: anywhere Posts: 1,976	Heh, And to think that someone complained today that the ID critics didn't have the "intestinal fortitude" to criticize their own. Thank you for being a man of principle.

11-18-2002, 04:32 AM	#20
pangloss Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,302	Who got banned? And Jack Foster (jazzraptor) is one of the biggest hypocrites on that slunkwagon. When I was allowed to post there, he launched into a campaign of button pushing and pestering me to - in my opinion - try to get me to respond in kiind so that he could start lobbying the 'moderator' to get me banned.

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