scigirl

Cool! Let us know how it goes. And feel free to steal any of my ideas or analogies. Just don't misquote me like some YECS do! Oh, and if you use Law and Order analogies, I want royalties.

scigirl

Camaban

So shall we set it at, say, 10% of the income he gets from using them in his argument?

GeoTheo

Hey Bubba,
I'm trying to find a church like yours!
Are you a Southern Baptist?
I had to write a paper. But I wasn't very informative or persuasive in it. I basically just pointed out all the things people with a literal view of Genesis believe that aren't in the text.
Like Cain marying his sister, no animal death before the fall, the belief that Satan posessed a serpents body etc. Then I pointed out some aspects of animal morphology that showed historical constraint. I then asked how I was supposed to believe all of this stuff or perhaps should I get a lobotomy and asked if "the illumination of the Holy Spirit" works better on people with a lobotomy. I then offerered them two choices:
Plug there ears and yell "Great is the God of ICR! Great is the God of ICR! or perhaps study the issue for themselves comparing ICR literature with
literature on evolution written by evolutionist and not just ICR literature only.
I wrote several papers most with a pleasant informative tone, but after a lot of prayer handed in the sarcastic one. I think it was appropriate because no one indicated they actually cared what my opinion actually was. They just wanted to "set me straight." I also was writing in order to defend myself from being voted out as a member. I think such a serious matter would require them to really seek to understand where I was coming from and not hastily pass judgement on me. The fact that I was instructed to write it in "500 words or less" shows they weren't concerned with examining the matter in depth but just trying to get rid of me so that they wouldn't have to deal with the issue.

If I were in a positive environment like you I would do it a lot differently.
First I would be sure to try remove the stigma that it is a debate between atheism and the Bible.
Then I would show how the passage of Gen 1-11 is Hebrew poetry. See the link on the thread "Darwin and God at the U" Dr. Denis who is a Biblical scholar wrote an excellent paper on this.
Then perhaps I would share how evolution has givin you a better insight to the cause of physical suffering in the world as opposed to their being a "curse" on creation. I have also been very impressed by the invention of computer software that uses principles of evolution to create solutions. I think that is a reflection of the wisdom God had in choosing to create that way.
To me my acceptance of evolution has caused me to be more humble about my beliefs and less judgmental of others. It has also given me a desire to put my efforts into being more like Christ and not so much value in "right thinking".
I wish you the best.

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: GeoTheo ]</p>

manderguy

One thing I'd recommend is framing the issue as the Bible AND science, not the Bible or science. If someone has to choose between a theory they know little about (and what they "know" is often wrong) that will send them to hell, and the TRUTH and heaven..... well, as a friend of mine says, at that point the pastor doesn't even have to make sense. I'd stress that, despite Gish et al. claiming the contrary, many people are both Christian, and accept evolution in one form or another.

You might want to bring up Denis Lamoureux (check the "Darwin and God at the U" thread if you haven't already). He's a great example of an evangelical christian who accepts evolution and thinks the YECs are terrible for a variety of reasons.

None of this addresses the evidence for evolution, but many YECers aren't operating at a safety level where they can accept the evidence. Getting people to understand that it's not: Evolution&Hell or Bible&Heaven helps get them to a point where they can look at the evidence safely.

GeoTheo

Bubba,
Here's some Hebrew scholarship that might be helpful.
<a href="http://www.orot.com/ec.html#Anchor-29396" target="_blank">http://www.orot.com/ec.html#Anchor-29396</a>

MrDarwin

Bubba, one of the problems you will encounter is that "young earth creationism" is all over the board and when YEC's talk about "evolution" they are talking about a lot of things completely unrelated to biological evolution. The age of the earth always gets drawn in, likewise the concepts of the flood and Noah's ark. You need to get past all of these before you can even begin to address biological evolution.

Bubba

Thanks for the help and ideas guys!!!

I especially appreciate the point about making it "the bible and science" and not "the bible or science." Geo, thanks for the link. I actually think Genesis makes a whole lot more sense understood as Hebrew poetry than a literal creation account.

Scigirl, the way you kicked Douglas in the privates during your debate was awesome!!! I wish I lived in Colorado. Assuming that you and your significant other get married/live together and buy a home, I'd love to wire the dog gone thing for you. It would be the least I could do.

Chris

Bubba

Mr. Darwin, your right on that point also. I'm going to try to keep the debate slow enough to cover subjects in detail.

Chris

Gregg

Although the title is provocative, and the author has actually moved beyond many of the conclusions he reaches in this book, John Shelby Spong's "Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism" might be a very good research tool for you. Ditto for Ken Miller's "Finding Darwin's God." Mr. Miller is an evangelical Christian who's also a biologist and a pro-evolution debater.

Gregg

KeithHarwood

Thank you for the compliments. I don't have a link or the text, I composed it straight into the message window. It's in Tricia's `Evolution is a religion' thread on the second or third page.