Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Peter Kirby · 08-13-2003, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RTS
The Bible is a mythological "Story" and mythological figures can't say anything !

Confucius could be a myth and we'd still love fortune cookies with "Confucius say."

best,
Peter Kirby

RTS · 08-13-2003, 05:49 PM

"Confucius could be a myth and we'd still love fortune cookies with "Confucius say."

True... very true! There is often much truth in jest as some of the following sayings may aptly describe a few of the indoctrinated posters on this forum...

Confucius say- "Everyone has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film!"

Confucius say- "Man with one ore in water, row in circle"

Confucius say- "War doesn't determine who is right, war determines who is left."

Confucius say- "Man who cook corn and peas in same pot is very unsanitary."

Soul Invictus · 08-13-2003, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RTS
First, to prove "What did Jesus really say" you have to prove that Jesus actually existed as a flesh and blood historical person. There is not one shred of evidence to prove an historical Jesus. A fanciful construct of someone's imagination cannot "say" anything.

The general consensus of biblical historians put the dating of the earliest Gospel, that of Mark, at sometime after 70 C.E., and the last Gospel, John after 90 C.E. This would make it some 40 years after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus that we have any Gospel writings that mention Jesus. After 40+ years, it would be almost impossible for anyone to quote exactly what anyone had said, especially if these stories had been told over and over with embellishments added to every telling.

We must also consider the fact that these Gospel writings did not come into the Bible as original and authoritative from the authors themselves, but rather from the influence of early church fathers, especially the most influential of them all: Irenaeus of Lyon who lived in the middle of the second century. And, 'Lying for the Church' was a common and apparently accepted practice.

The big question is 'how did the original writers know what Jesus said when Jesus was alone?' There were no witnesses to many of the quoted "Jesus sayings", so how could they quote his words?

The Bible is a mythological "Story" and mythological figures can't say anything !

RTS,

I thank you for making these distinctions for purposes of the thread. For the thread's sake, my inquiry wasn't based under a consensus that there was evidence that Jesus existed. That's open to much scrutiny, and whether one is a HJ-JMer or not, I wasn't hoping to get the votes on the posters here.

My contention really was for those that do assume the historicity of Jesus. I'm wondering from what texts or scripts did the translators base their assertions that Jesus would have said such things....or was most these records done via an operating oral history prevalent in their society? (I'm trying to backtrack to source information for Jesus to have said what is attributed to him.)

Naturally the (in)convenience of any self-written works from Jesus himself makes this discussion difficult

I usually don't do things like this, and I hope it doesn't disrupt the seriousness of the thread....I had to add it....it's a once in a lifetime milestone here at IIDB..

CONGRATS TO ME!!! I AM NOW A VETERAN USER!!!!

Bernard Muller · 08-13-2003, 07:41 PM

WHAT JESUS SAID?
I am an HJer (but a non-Christian) and 'what Jesus said' does not include:
All "he said" in GJohn
All the Parables
Most of the sayings in any gospel.
What's left: a few sayings about, or associated with:
the Kingdom will come (but John the Baptist said it first!)
and the poor (Jews of Jesus' times) will populate it.
More info and all justifications on my page:
Jesus' message, etc.
Best regards, Bernard

Soul Invictus · 08-13-2003, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bernard Muller
WHAT JESUS SAID?
I am an HJer (but a non-Christian) and 'what Jesus said' does not include:
All "he said" in GJohn
All the Parables
Most of the sayings in any gospel.
What's left: a few sayings about, or associated with:
the Kingdom will come (but John the Baptist said it first!)
and the poor (Jews of Jesus' times) will populate it.
More info and all justifications on my page:
Jesus' message, etc.
Best regards, Bernard

Thanks for the link....Peter Kirby should like to pour over this.

Rick Sumner · 08-13-2003, 09:15 PM

You don't think Jesus said *any* of the parables?

It seems to have been a common method of teaching, used by everyone from the Rabbis to the Essenes. Why is Jesus distinct from them in this regard?

I'd argue quite the contrary. The imagery in the parables would have been easy to remember. Longer ones, such as the Prodigal Son, seem unlikely to have been handed down, but shorter ones, such as the mustard seed, or the similes of salt and light, seem to be exactly the kind of thing we should expect to survive--the succinctness (is that a word?), and the everyday imagery, would have made it easy to remember.

Regards,
Rick

Peter Kirby · 08-13-2003, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
Thanks for the link....Peter Kirby should like to pour over this.

Well, first, Bernard would have to explain the rules or heuristics by which he says "Jesus said this" and "Jesus did not say that."

best,
Peter Kirby

Volker.Doormann · 08-13-2003, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I thought I read somewhere that parts of the NT that are traditionally having been credited to having been said by Jesus may have most likely not have been.

What sources or references can anyone offer in this study?

I think the reference are some scriptures, where the Name Jesus is claimed in connection to the claim, 'he has said'. Personally, I think the best reference is the Gospel of Thomas. All other stuff are remakes of this, containing known ancient myths from egypt, from the Torah and from many other cultures. Q is pure fantasy and ignores The Gospel of Thomas.

Quote:

Does anyone know the reasoning behind this thought?

Yes.

Quote:

What do scholars hold as being most likely said by Jesus?

Speculative question. Next.

Quote:

What are the credentials of the scholars that make these assertions?

What credentials do have speculations?

Volker

aikido7 · 08-14-2003, 02:22 AM

During the last few years I remember looking through a book called The Great Deception and it listed definite criteria for determining what Jesus said and what he didn't say. As I now recall, it was speculation backed by reasonable methodology, but speculation nonetheless.

Until they can unearth that videotape in the Middle East, we're out of luck. It might be in BETA format, too.

Soul Invictus · 08-14-2003, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Volker.Doormann
Personally, I think the best reference is the Gospel of Thomas. All other stuff are remakes of this, containing known ancient myths from egypt, from the Torah and from many other cultures. Q is pure fantasy and ignores The Gospel of Thomas.
Volker

Where does the Gospel of Thomas fit in in reference to age relative to that of the Synoptic Gospels, or at least Mark?

Would you have a version to suggest? I may go purchase it, if there's no online version for the one you suggest.

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08-13-2003, 05:49 PM	#12
RTS Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 86	"Confucius could be a myth and we'd still love fortune cookies with "Confucius say." True... very true! There is often much truth in jest as some of the following sayings may aptly describe a few of the indoctrinated posters on this forum... Confucius say- "Everyone has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film!" Confucius say- "Man with one ore in water, row in circle" Confucius say- "War doesn't determine who is right, war determines who is left." Confucius say- "Man who cook corn and peas in same pot is very unsanitary."

08-13-2003, 07:41 PM	#14
Bernard Muller Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 927	WHAT JESUS SAID? I am an HJer (but a non-Christian) and 'what Jesus said' does not include: All "he said" in GJohn All the Parables Most of the sayings in any gospel. What's left: a few sayings about, or associated with: the Kingdom will come (but John the Baptist said it first!) and the poor (Jews of Jesus' times) will populate it. More info and all justifications on my page: Jesus' message, etc. Best regards, Bernard

08-13-2003, 09:15 PM	#16
Rick Sumner Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada Posts: 2,612	You don't think Jesus said any of the parables? It seems to have been a common method of teaching, used by everyone from the Rabbis to the Essenes. Why is Jesus distinct from them in this regard? I'd argue quite the contrary. The imagery in the parables would have been easy to remember. Longer ones, such as the Prodigal Son, seem unlikely to have been handed down, but shorter ones, such as the mustard seed, or the similes of salt and light, seem to be exactly the kind of thing we should expect to survive--the succinctness (is that a word?), and the everyday imagery, would have made it easy to remember. Regards, Rick

08-14-2003, 02:22 AM	#19
aikido7 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Here Posts: 234	During the last few years I remember looking through a book called The Great Deception and it listed definite criteria for determining what Jesus said and what he didn't say. As I now recall, it was speculation backed by reasonable methodology, but speculation nonetheless. Until they can unearth that videotape in the Middle East, we're out of luck. It might be in BETA format, too.

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