Celsus

I just noticed the other question about the exodus. If you want the Biblical answer, then it should be around the 15th century BCE, but then, any date you wish to postulate has circumstancial evidence for it, and strong evidence against it.

Joel

Edit: <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000741" target="_blank">Here</a> is an attempt by a theist to put a solid dating on the Exodus. After much research going nowhere and ignoring any evidence to the contrary, he gave up. (Note that he ignores the Biblical length of Judges - about 400 years, since that conflicts with the Exodus being dated 480 years prior to the construction of Solomon's temple, also Biblical). When you take myth for history, you can prove anything. Until reality hits you like a sledgehammer.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: joejoejoe ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule

I just discovered that Shanks' interview of Finkelstein is on line:

Celsus

Thanks RD.

If someone asked me the same question, I would say exactly the same thing for Jesus, Buddha, David, etc.

Apikorus

joe, Finkelstein accepts the historicity of David on some level (he adduces the Tel Dan stele). (See the BAR interview linked above.) Of course he also insists that the biblical account of David's exploits is significantly exaggerated and refracted.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Apikorus ]</p>

Celsus

As do I. King Arthur was a rhetorical flourish, and it's certainly possible that the stories are based on a village chieftan or something. For example, in the case of Moses, legends about him (J & E?) are too strong to believe that he was completely fictional.

Joel

Edit: the term "mythical fiction" that I used is possibly too strong, but meant to imply an idea like Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, with "myth" incorporated to show a theological interpretation.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: joejoejoe ]

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: joejoejoe ]</p>

Apikorus

The historicity of Moses simply cannot be assessed at present. He is as historical as Odysseus. We have essentially no evidence at all that the Israelites were ever in Egypt. There are no contemporaneous Egyptian writings which mention Moses, etc.

David is another matter. The overwhelming majority of scholars accept the legitimacy of the Tel Dan stele. Lemaire argues that, modulo a broken letter, bayit dawid is in the Mesha stele (in Moabite, of course). Kitchen speculates that David is also mentioned in Sheshonq's victory list. So there is some epigraphic evidence for David, although Mesha and Sheshonq are shaky.

Clearly the biblical account of David is highly inflated. For a highly nuanced study of the David material in the Hebrew Bible, see Baruch Halpern's "David's Secret Demons".

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Apikorus ]</p>

Celsus

Hi Apikorus,

I find the "historicity" question rather dubious and useless for non-academics like myself. It completely depends on what kind of evidence is given priority or otherwise. Although there are certainly arguments for and against in deciding the usefulness of evidence, I doubt I have the technical knowledge to judge it for myself. As noted, Moses' reputation in 2 different and independant sources is enough for me to be agnostic but certainly accepting the possibility of a historical source for the stories (and it follows that if Moses did exist, he was probably Egyptian (his name) with Midianite influence (his god)). Nothing else can be said beyond that.

I tend to disagree with the pure mythicisers because it is difficult (for me) to envisage how ancient myths can become mistaken for history. Maybe it's peculiar to ancient Judaism. It's possible, maybe even probable, but who knows? After all, the Tel Dan stele has been questioned, but I rely on arguments from experts to make my decision, and it often ends up agreeing with my preconceived ideas.

Joel

Jayhawker Soule

I'm sorry, but I do not understand.

Marduk

I think he means when did people start thinking this myth was true. There would have been a time when no one ever heard the Moses story. Then someone said "hey remember the story of Moses, we are his people!" and everyone would say "Huh? WTF are you talking about" If there were not some type of historical basis.

Biff the unclean

Well, Marduck, if you are looking for that exact scene in the OT you'll find it in Second Kings. One of the ancestors of Norm Abrams is doing some work on the Great Temple and finds in the wall the books of the Law (probably Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers). This is dated at 621 BCE
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II Kings 22:3 And it came to pass in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, that the king sent Shaphan the son of Azaliah, the son of Meshullam, the scribe, to the house of the LORD, saying, (4)Go up to Hilkiah the high priest, that he may sum the silver which is brought into the house of the LORD, which the keepers of the door have gathered of the people 5) And let them deliver it into the hand of the doers of the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD: and let them give it to the doers of the work which is in the house of the LORD, to repair the breaches of the house, (6) Unto carpenters, and builders, and masons, and to buy timber and hewn stone to repair the house. (7) Howbeit there was no reckoning made with them of the money that was delivered into their hand, because they dealt faithfully. (8) And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.(9) And Shaphan the scribe came to the king, and brought the king word again, and said, Thy servants have gathered the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of them that do the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD.