BioBeing

Science doesn't claim to be able to*. However, scientists are researching into the causes of the disease (and many others) such that one day they may be able to.

*Maybe Wicca doesn't claim it either (I am ignorant of Wicca, I will admit) but claims of supernatural healing (reike (sp?) and such) are associated in the minds of many with such practices. (I have an aquaintance who practices Wicca and reike, so there is some overlap?) Christianity (some versions) claims faith healing.

Aquila ka Hecate

(thanks Bio Being)

Umm-Calzaer, yes, it's because science doesn't claim to .

The doctors were quite honest with me about Mum's chances.
Unlike most wiccans-who are theists

Miraculous healing is a claim of religion, not science.
Any healings acheived through science have this in common-we can, if we have the time and inclination, understand how they work.

Whereas the very basis of the occult is that its mechanisms are ineffable.

JTVrocher-thank you.

cassiopeiae , I must take issue with the following:

I've never met any occultists who studied science (as in non-magical science), or any who had much mathematical ability above that needed for numerological aspects and geometry.
I've met many who claimed these learnings, however.
They appeared to be 90% hot air.
The Freemason link I'm not disputing, it's well documented.
But what in Bast's name is this "Old Religion" of which you speak?

Are you still under the strange misapprehension that the neo pagans of today practise a religion which has survived the last 35 000 -odd years? I thought we'd put paid to that one.

cassiopeiae

i am sorry you have never met an occultist that studied science, just about every one of them i know studies everything (for lack of a better term). yeah, i have met too many people who blow hot air also, i can see why there are misconceptions of the occult.

"Old Religion" that i am referring to, is, yes, many many thousand years old, but as i said before, the current practices are BASED off of it...that doesn't mean it's the same. it is like playing that stupid 'telephone' game as a child (the one where you sit with a bunch of people and whisper some phrase down the line), what it started out as, doesn't mean that's what it ended up with. saying that, there are still many rituals and methods that can be dated to the ancient eqyptians, druids, etc. as for pagans, i consider them more of a religion than general 'occult'. i am not pagan, i have studied it though. i tend to think people relate all 'occult' sciences to paganism or witchcraft. that is not true. pagans and wiccans may be a stem of the occult, but not every occultist is pagan or wiccan...

Harumi

happyboy,

Obviously you don't feel like it has much meaning, but for others, it does. And as you aren't them, and your ideas are not the absolute limit for everyone else, I think it would be a better idea to refrain from insulting others. I'm sure that what those wiccans did to you was very painful, but to insult others based on the mistakes of a few is very rash.

Not everything is done because it has a point. Some are done for no other purpose than because it's comforting, it's beautiful, etc, etc. As long as it doesn't hurt anybody I don't see why it would be so bad.

There are people who feel that murdering others would make them more "in tune" with the universe. Others feel that they have to kill those who don't believe in what they believe to become in tune with the universe/God. I personally prefer the occultists. At least there is some beauty (in my opinion of course!)in what they do.

Calzaer

And Wicca does? Where? I've got more books than you can shake a stick at, and not one of them makes any claim along the lines of "Magic will cure illnesses like Alzhiemers and cancer". Some Christians claim that prayer heals cancer, but I have yet to see anyone apply that to the entirety of the system.

Harumi

I think I understand what you mean. I'm not a consistent enough person to ever do a ritual, but I can be very refreshing can't it? It's part of being human, and that's what religion usually provides, even Christianity. The problem is when those religions are made more than what they really are, and used to hurt others that I have a problem with it.

As a result I have no problem with Buddhism, even when I left it after I couldn't agree with some of its ideas. Unlike Christians turned atheists, I have no feeling of bitterness. Fond memories actually.

There is nothing I would like better than to go to the edge of a cliff, and view the forest and a setting sun. I've never done that before. My family hates camping, so the most I can enjoy of nature is go out on the porch when it's raining. That is quite delightful actually.

And I probably should have realized that it was sarcastic. But I'm gullible and naive like that. Just think though...a few years before I was even worse!

emotional

So what does magick do? Does it work only for spiritual matters, or it is capable of changing physical reality? Do the claims of occultist reach out to the real world, where they can be falsified, or do they stay in the cozy home of spiritual realms?

In The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage there are spells for calling tempests, for unlocking locked doors and for invisibility, among others. Now those are real-world claims! Is magick like that, or is it nowadays confined to goddess-trances, love potions and luck charms?

---

I conjure thee, o spirit of occultism, to begone!
אַבְּרָא קַדַבְּרָא

Calzaer

It might work like that, but not in the world of Wicca. Wiccans absolutely refuse to make any falsifiable claims on magic, which really drives me crazy some days. Of course, as soon as a Wiccan actually came out and SAID "I can cure cancer", the ADA would have him dead broke in a prison cell before he could prove it. Only officially recognized MDs are legally allowed to make claims like that.

From what I understand so far, almost all Wiccan magic is purely a vehicle for personal change. Completely spiritual. But I'm only still working on my first degree. Maybe when I get to 2nd they'll start claiming I can walk on water.

You just really confused the hell out of the spirit of occultism.
"I don't get it. Does he want to conjure me, or does he want me to be gone?"

emotional

So you seem to agree with me that Wicca doesn't make claims for objective reality. It is an entirely a subjective scheme - a personal self-help enterprise, as it were. Still, even if you evade real-world claims and talk only about spiritual things such as the Goddess and the God, I have to question whether it has any objective reality. I mean, suppose I decide to worship Venus for improving my spiritual consciousness, and I succeed - does it means the goddess is real? Suppose I study Qabbalah for opening my spiritual horizons - and I really did that - is there anything that suggests that the Tree of Life (kether to malkhuth, the 10 sephiroth) is real? I've opened many an occult text, such as those of John Dee, Henry Cornelius Agrippa, Rosicrucians &c, and all I see is things that can easily be made up in the mind of man. Does it take a mystical experience to tell us of angels such as Astarot and Asmodee? One can easily make up names.

But when I compare the occult texts as against the natural universe that science has revealed before me, there is simply no contest. The saga of how life-forms diversified by means of natural, blind-watchmaker evolution simply makes the whole of the occult seem like babies' toys in comparison! Men can dream up angels like Michael and Cassiel and Samael, but the workings of the natural universe are something totally out of human conception. With the natural universe to contemplate, who needs the occult?

'Twas a parody of the Greater Key of Solomon

יהוה TE·TRA·GRAM·MA·TON

happyboy

thank you for answering my question. i retract the offensive comments i made earlier. now that i know that most occultists don't make outrageous and highly idiotic statements like "i have magick faerie powers and can do X, Y, and Z," and is rather a means of ritualized spirituality, then i am no longer quite as angry.

but at the same time, i am aware that many occultists DO believe they have magickal faerie powers, and it is those occultists that i hate, despise, and revile. now that i know you and JTVrocher donot profess to have these magickal powers, i humbly apologize.

happyboy